Pallet Cants & Scragg?

[luke]

I recently noticed that cant prices have gone up considerably, I have heard that the supply is down and demand is up.  That might make it worth while to saw some cants.  If anyone has a scragg mill and has experienced sawing pallet cants give me a few pointers on this subject, your comments will be appreciated, or anyone who saws pallet cants with any type of sawmill your comments will be appreciated also.

Would a 8" - 10"  dia. log make a pallet cant? And would a mini scragg with two 36" Carbide IT Blades and maybe a resaw behind it be good for sawing pallet cants? :P

Happy Holidays!
LUKE

[Bro. Noble]

We have a scragg and resaw.  That's what you need to produce pallet boards efficiently.  Yes you can get a pallet cant out of an 8 in log and a small tie 6X8 out of a 10 incher.  

We added these machines to what we already had (WM & edger) to speed up sawing junk stuff that wouldn't make ties or grade lumber.  Pallet lumber is low enough in value that you gotta turn it out pretty fast to make much for your time.  I wouldn't want to try producing only pallet stock on a small scale.  I've seen a few people try that and fail.

By cutting your own pallet stock compared to selling pallet cants,  It allows you to process thick slabs,  cants that aren't sound the full length,  and scrap boards.

If we didn't have an edger,  I believe I could do a decent job of edging on the scragg mill,  but the board size would be limited and a lot of stuff would have to be sent through twice.  Still better IMO than edging on a sawmill unless you do it like Jeff and Ron ;)

[luke]

Bro. Noble, what do you consider small scale? I was thinking of sawing 5,000 bf a day of pallet cants and yes a thick edger could make it easier and more productive, actually if I had two mini scraggs, I have heard that it's possible to produce 20,000 bd. ft. of cants a day but that' going to be a lot of handling.

What kind of scragg mill and resaw do you have?  I was looking at the Morgan Mini Scragg, looks like a pretty good one. :P

LUKE

[Bro. Noble]

Luke,

Five thousand ft /day would be a lot of pallet stuff.  I would go for cutstock rather than cants with the prices we have locally.  You would need to know three things to estimate your profitability:  How much could you realistically saw in a day?  Do you have a dependable supply of pallet bolts and at what price?  Do you have a dependable market and at what price?

We have a Morgan mini-scragg with pto power and roller return.  It seems to be well made but it wont saw for me like it does for Mr. Morgan.  I've seen him demonstrate it in person and have their video.  We go at a fraction of the speed they do.  Most of it is probably me.  Jeff B has helped me run it so you might want to get his opinion of the machine and it's potential.  I would reccomend the machine for the right application.  I think the one machine with return would be sufficient.  

Our resaw is a Go-fast single head.  I would reccoment it without qualifications  but you would probably need a multihead.  They make those also.  I've seen Bakers in operation and they looked good and the owners were pleased.  

[Ron Wenrich]

The reason for the price hike is that there is really a shortage of logs due to the weather.  Most guys in the east have no log supply.  Price hikes were in back in the spring.  

There are several over on Sawmill Exchange.  One advertises the rate of 130-150 cants per hour.  That's a lot of production.  If you don't have a chipper, you'll probably have to add one, due to all the slabs produced.

Noble gives some good advice.  You need supply and a market.  You also have to figure in what happens to your economics when price fails.  You can't depend on market highs to run a business.  You have to factor in market lows.

[Rod]

Pallet cants here bring $320M,and 1'' boards bring $220M

Going price for pallet logs 8''-10'' 8'3'' to the mill brings $225M

[luke]

Bro. Noble,

about the three variables you asked about.  The selling market of pallet cants looks economically steady, talked to some cant buyers and they said they would buy all the pallet cants I could sell them.  It was $300 a thousand a while back and now their up to $320 a thousand. So I believe that variable to be solved.

For variable number two, I personally don't have any experience with the Morgan mini scragg mill, but I would say if you had a live deck and log turner and return it should be able to produce enough pallet cants if the cant logs are 8"-10" dia. you should be able to produce enough pallet cants for a two man operation to be profitable. But those are just my thoughts on it, no practical experience in the field. You may be able to tell me a little about that.

For variable number three which I believe is the most difficult one to solve, you can buy timber on the stump, or saw logs, but I don't know anyone I could buy any logs that would be suitable for a scragg mill you may know something about that I see that the bigger mills are advertising in the local newspapers for pallet cant logs and tie logs, whether they are getting any logs are not, I' don't know. ???

Luke

[Bro. Noble]

That seems like a plenty good price for cants.  Last we sold (before we got the resaw) were 18-21cents per ft.  We get 28 cents a ft for cut stock,  but they want 5/8 and scale it at 3/4 so they are buying the kerf.  

The scragg mills here that didn't make a go of it were larger affairs.  They bought bolts by the piece------so much money for 6", 8"  etc.  usually about 52 in long.  Seems like they got lots of stuff at first and then the cutters either ran out of stumpage or got tired of cutting.

You might check any local tie yards or grade lumber brokers.  They usually sell miscut stuff and stuff that won't meet specs for pallet stock or firewood.

The morgan isn't made for a log turner as far as I know.  That's no problem if the bolts are smooth and streight.

We made our own log deck-----just sloping ramps that we load with forks and roll down as needed.  We do more slabs and flitches than round wood,  however.

What I was talking about as being slower than demonstrated was the actual sawing.  You have two blades on a common shaft so you can't put lead in the blades.  The only clearence you have is the wider width of the teeth compared to the plate.  each sharpening,  this is reduced.  If anything causes either saw to deviate,  you get a wedge between the saws and hot saws.  You're done till the blades cool down.  Grinding lead in the bits or using steel bits and swaging them might help.  

I'm afraid to push it too hard for fear of causing the blade to slow down and/or deviate.

[Ron Wenrich]

Our cant prices are up to $350, but they were as low as $280 last year with very low demand.  It used to be that half of all pallet stock was used for the automotive business.  If they ain't building cars, those prices will drop.

Any time the economy goes soft, the pallet markets seem to be the first to feel it.  I wouldn't count of high prices as being the norm.  I haven't found to many cant buyers that have any loyalty to their suppliers.  It might be different in your area.

We have a few scragg mills that buy logs.  They want straight low grade, and are paying above pulp but below tie prices.  I've noticed that the management is now putting those scragg logs into firewood instead of sending to the scragg mill.  

[luke]

Bro. Noble,

the log turner/aligner for the morgan mini scragg is a option morgan can add it on for about a $1,000.00 extra.  I thought on the insert bits on the carbide blades once the bits get dull I thought you were suppose to throw the dull ones away and put new ones in.  Some sawmills use some type of liquid to cool the blade down to help aid in cutting, and some mills also use water to help aid in cutting, that could be another reason why the blades are heating up, but that's just my thoughts on it.

If you want to sell your scragg mill let me know I might be interested in it.

I see that Baker's mini scragg, they're saying will produce up to 20,000 b. ft. a day but you have the band blades to deal with which probably would require more maintenance to operate. :P   //Overview

"The Baker Mini-Scragg Mill accepts logs up to 12"
or 16" (305 mm or 406 mm) in diameter. It's perfect
for running debarked scragg blocks, peeler cores
or lodge pole pine.

The Baker Mini-Scragg Mill is very versatile. You
adjust the cutting size simply by pushing a button.
The blades adjust to any preset width from 3 1/2"
to 12" (89 mm to 305 mm). You can run your slabs
through "bark-side-down" for improved blade life in
non-debarked slabs. With the lumber inverted this
way, centering the piece is almost automatic.
Blade damage is reduced because the blades
enter down through clean wood and exit through
the bottom bark side where grit and gravel can
lodge.

Production rates of 15,000-20,000 board feed per
day can be reached with its thin-kerf band blades" (Baker website).
 
Luke

[Kirk_Allen]

What is a pallet cant?  Is this the bottom cants on a pallet?

What is a scragg?

I have a friend in Arkansas that has access to unlimeted wind blown white oak and just happens to live within a mile of a pallet factory.

We are going to set up an operation shortly at his place where he can rent the mill and sell the "non-grade" wood to the pallet company and sell the grade wood elsware.

Any input on best pricing for pallet wood would be appreciated.

Thanks
Kirk

[Ron Wenrich]

Pallet cants vary from one area to the next.  Basically, they are the center of the log where there is the most low grade.  In my area, you can sell 3 1/2 x 6, 4 x 6, 5 1/2 x 6 and some 6 x 6,  Most want dense hardwoods, and some will take softer woods.  Cants should be seperated for length.

The advantage of selling the cants, you don't have to waste time sawing low grade wood.  The pallet plant will resaw them, usually on a gang saw.  They will vary the thickness, depending on their needs.

But, you have to make sure you're not putting tie logs into pallet cants.  You will lose out.  

Scragg mills can be either 2 or 3 saw band or circle rigs.  Some are set up to handle small bolts, others will handle 16' logs.  Instead of a carriage, they often use either a shapr chain or an end dogging system.

A log is passed through to make a set width during the first pass.  It can either be brought back or put through another scragg mill to get the second dimension.  

To have really good recovery, you need to resaw the slabs.

Cooper makes a scragg mill that is advertised at 8 logs/minute.  It is end dogging, and has 2 48" circle saws that can be set.  Daily production is 30-35 Mbf.  

http://www.coopermachine.com/overheadscragg.html

Also check out the list of scraggs that our sponsor Baker has to offer:

http://www.baker-online.com/DOCUMENTS/scragg%20mill_selection_menu.htm

[luke]

Kirk,

a pallet cant is usually smaller than a tie and sometimes is the heart part of the log, and is generally the lower grade part of the log.

The best way to find pallet cant prices is to call your nearest pallet company prices vary on geographic region and supply and demand.

A resaw is a machine you should try to learn about, Baker Products advertisement has them listed in their link, you can read about their resaws, scraggs and learn a little bit about that.

A scragg mill is for the production of cants & ties, the machine has two blades either band or circular.

Pallet cants are usually resawed into thinner boards for the production of pallets.  The bottom part of a pallet is generally notched so that pallet forks can go into them.

Hope this helps.

LUKE

[Kirk_Allen]

I understand that a cant is basically the core of the log.

So.....what is a tie?  Is this a specific dimension?

What is a bolt?

Are pallet companies looking only for cants? or do they also buy the top boards of the pallet?  (Not sure what they call them)

I would like to be able to have all this terminology down prior to contacting them.
Thanks for any input!
Kirk

[Ron Wenrich]

Ties are usually a 7 x 9 or a 7 x 8 and is 8'6" long, although I can sell an 8' tie.  There is also a 6 x 8 tie.  Species are generally all hardwood species except tulip poplar and aspen.  The 8'6" tie are standard for the railroad and it takes about 3200 per mile of line.

There are also switch ties that can go from 10' to 24'.  These are usually oak, at least in my area.

There are also bridge timbers.  RR bridges are made from wood, since it absorbs the shock better.  These can go from an 8 x 8 to a 10 x 17 and are normally 10-15 feet in length.  These are pretty much specialty items, but pay really well.

A bolt is usually refered to logs shorter than 8'.  For the smaller scraggs, they run a shorter log.

Ties won't allow too much wane, shake, split, rot, and a host of other defects.  Right now they aren't too picky, since supply is short.  Give them a quality product and you won't have any problems.

Logs that don't make ties due to quality or defect are cut into pallet cants.  I cut all my better grade down to a 3 1/2 x 6.  For lesser grades, I will cut multiples.

Top and bottom boards vary for each skid.  They can range from a 3/8" to a full 1" board.  That is why the pallet mills prefer to buy the cants and run whatever thickness they need.  They simply double end trim the cants to the size of boards they need, then gang saw or resaw to their specs.

Runners are generally 1 1/4".  Most just use 4/4 pallet grade boards.  I can sell 1 x 4 and 1 x 6 boards.  Sometimes the demand gets a little low on these things during slow times.  Resawing a 4/4 board is labor intensive, and many times you won't get the same yield.

You can resaw boards into the smaller deck boards, but I feel it is too labor and capital intensive for the return.  Pallet mills run on a very thin margin.  

[Kirk_Allen]

Who do you contact for selling railroad ties?

Thanks for all the info.

Kirk

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm selling mine to Koppers.  They have plants in Alorton, IL, and Galesburg, IL

Kerr-McGee also buys ties.  They have an operation in Madison, IL.  They used to have several others, but have pulled back in recent years.

We also have several independent tie buyers. Here's a partial list I found on the web.  

http://www.allenrailroad.com/RailQuick/Switch_ties_wood.htm

Contact your state forestry office.  They probably have a listing tie buyers operating in your state.

[Bro. Noble]

Kirk,

We also sell to Koppers and have been very satisfied with them.

I think Bill Randolph is in charge of buying in Ill. although he lives in Kent.  

I've e-mailed Koppers in hopes that someone will represent them on the forum and answer some of the questions that have come up on how and where to sell ties.