What makes a Forester A Forester?

[Ron Scott]

There's a lot more to forestry than just "the trees", and it's ok that there are timber buyers and loggers who are after the monitary values the tree provides them.

But what about the many "nonmonitary values" a forest provides, such as those that aren't turned over in the market place, i.e. soil, air, water, wildlife, aesthetics, recreation wilderness, E, T, & S species, etc. Some may even be priceless or the last of it's kind.

If the timberbuyer or logger has training acceptable by society and a degree in the sciences involved to integrate all forest resources, then they can call themselves whatever they want to be called.

There is a variance of degree in knowledge between foresters also, but anyone working in the forests should not violate the minimum resource standard of any one resource at the cost to the rest.

Buying and cutting trees is only one activity in forest management. A"good" forester should know a little more. :P

[SwampDonkey]

Oldtimer,

I don't know your circumstances, but if the forester has any credibility at all he'll be giving you due credit for the fine work he hired you to do. If he isn't than he's got some personal issues. Because hiring the right fella, like yourself makes him look good as well. Why would the forester wanna hire a slobber logger and look like an @$$ unless he has other motives, possibly under-handed ones. Goes without saying. ;)

Jeff, your right. It's very deceptive and in a couple provinces (BC and Quebec) if someone tries to pass themselves off as a forester, and he isn't, then he's breaking the law. And in order to practice forestry you have to be registered, as it is regulated in these provinces.

Forester- British Columbia

[Ron Scott]

Amen! to good loggers making a forester look good. ;)  

Foresters need to give loggers credit for their good work and I agree that some foresters have personality problems as well.

Good loggers will continue get wood to harvest and be kept busy.

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer,

I don't know your circumstances, but if the forester has any credibility at all he'll be giving you due credit for the fine work he hired you to do. If he isn't than he's got some personal issues. Because hiring the right fella, like yourself makes him look good as well. Why would the forester wanna hire a slobber logger and look like an @$$ unless he has other motives, possibly under-handed ones. Goes without saying. ;)

The forester I am cutting for now loves my work. He just wishes I could produce more. (This is why I want a nice 648 D/A with a winch!)  With my personal life subject to "don't go to work, I need you to_____" and the weather, and the fact that I run one tank of saw gas out  cutting tops and brush down under 4' (all burly nasty 50-60 Y/O oak up on a ledgy mountain!) for every tank spent chopping and limbing, the production is slow to say the least. He says that the quality of the job comes before the production, so he's all good. The other forester I cut for was the same. He couldn't believe I'd put a skidder where I did. He was going to write the lot off as un-harvestable. No such thing in my book.

[rebocardo]

> What difference does it make which country uses the logs?

Because shipping logs wholesale out of a country robs the country of milling jobs and ends up squandering a natural resource that could be used for the betterment and employment of the local population.

[sawmillsi]

Hi guys,

Just thought I would wde into this one.

I fully agree with you Rebocardo, and even in developing countries like Papua New Guniea it is almost impossible to export whole logs with out some kind of processing.

I find it easy to believe that the US would export high quality logs, as it is easy to argue that your current administration is mis-managing your natural resources quite well (how it looks from this side of the Pacific).

Back to the forester question. I call myself a 'Community Forester". My qualifications are:

10 years full time experience in all aspects of the timebr industry in Australia and 2 years of experience in PNG and the Solomon Islands (thhis includes pre-harvest, harvest, milling, and down stream processing).

3 years study (still going) at Southern Cross University (one of 3 University's in Australia to offer a Forestry degree) towards a Bachelor of Applied Science Forestry.

Associate membership of the Institute of Forestors of Australia (recognised as a working forester with valuable experience but no degree).

Am I leading people on when I work for them?

By the way, I am leaving for the UK and then Angola in about 4 hours. I am doing a community development project in Angola that includes developing harvest plans, implimenting them and some down stream processing.

At all times when I do work, I let people know that it is my opinion and if they are in doubt they should seek a second opinion. But i also tell them of my experiences and that usually helps alot.

I know that i have made mistakes before, I try to make them small ones. But I am human, just like you's guys.

If I am talking to an 'older, more experienced' person/professional, dosn't matter degree or not, I always listen. They usually will look at the problem a slightly different way and that always helps.

In Australia, foresters have little to no respect in the industry as they usually have only paper degrees and no practicle experience.

I feel that the statements by Ron Scott are right on the money.

I'll check in while I am away and see what mess I have stired up.

I'll also take some pictures and post them later.

Simon

[SwampDonkey]

Simon,

I don't think you stirred up too much, not with me anyway. ;)

Forgot to mention a couple posts back, that our provincial crown sourced timber can not be exported as logs, it has to be processed first. Freehold and private wood can be shipped as logs out of the country though. If you have a look at the thread I started on the Wood yard at our local Forest Products Marketing Board you'll see that is all private sourced wood and you may learn a little about our system if ya read through it and check the links out. ;)

Also, some forest associations allow you to become members if you don't graduate as a forester from a recognized forestry school, BUT you will have to take some extra courses and complete an entrance exam and field experience before being considered. Sounds sorta what your in the process of achieving if I haven't misread your posting. ;) Mill workers here are engineers, mill wrights, sawyers, scalers etc and the foresters do the 'policing', planning, wood purchasing and supervising on the land base when it comes the industry. They are typically the ones (or Forest Engineers) sent abroad to look at markets and find new ideas in far corners of the globe for their company. By the way, a forest engineer is recognized by the forestry association (RPF) as well as the engeering association (P Eng) as a registrant. That's one occupation no one has mentioned yet in this thread. ;) I know a number of Forest Engineers and they took alot of the same courses in the first 3 years of study, plus engeneering on top of that.

cheers

[Furby]

Sorry guys, I'm with Rebo on this as well!
I can totally see the point about the increased profit from the log it self, by exporting the log, but heck, these are more American jobs you all are talking about. This part of the thread has been a total 180 degree turn from another thread where were talking about jobs going over seas.
Sorry, this is just a sore spot for me.

[Jeff]

There have been times over the years, that selling our high quality veneer to the canadian market kept us from possibly closing up. Keeping me from losing my american job.

[SwampDonkey]

And the situation in New Brunswick is that we wouldn't have the volume of veneer to even keep a veneer mill running. Our hardwood is on the fringe of the range and is mostly pulpwood. Without the Kraft pulp mill that just went bust, the hardwood (90 % or it) was worthless inside the confines of the province. Napadogen Veneer has to import it's wood to keep the mill fed. Large diameter hardwood you guys talk of for logs and veneer down there are junk up here with frost seems and hollow heartwood.  :

[Phorester]

To be called a Forester in the USA (and I hope the rest of the world), you need a minimum of a Bachelors of Science degree in forest management.  All the other things; doing right by the woods, loyalty to the landowner, etc., comes after that degree.

There are good doctors, bad doctors, and incompetent doctors. We see the last catetory on the national news a lot. But to be called a Doctor, they all have to have that medical degree.  That's where it starts.  What they do with it, how they conduct themselves as doctors, comes after the education.

Same with a Forester.  This is not some personal philosophy, or spending 20 years in the woods.  It's a profession with basic educational requirements to be properly called a Forester.  What the person does with the degree comes after it's earned.

There is local Campground Manager who owns a little over 2,000 acres of forestland where his campground is located.  He does his own logging, and sells his own logs. He calls himself a Forester because he chooses what trees he will cut down.  Well, I've camped in a couple dozen campgrounds throughout my life , does that mean I can call myself a campground manager?  Don't think so.....

[jrdwyer]

Many good points have been made. I'll add a some more.

As an independent forester working for private landowners, I always put the landowner's objectives first. Assuming what the owner wants to do is legal, I help them meet their goals. This sometimes means good forest management, but not always.

A good example would be a client who has inherited a property and makes a decision to sell merchantable timber and then auction off the property following the timber sale. This is often done to maximize total dollar return. I will inform the client of the negative aspects of cutting small diameter trees (mostly tie and pallet sized) on the future value and compostition of the forest. I will also inform them of the value of such small diameter hardwoods. In the end, they usually decide to cut everything but standing pulpwood sized trees so as not to reduce the visual appeal of the woods when the land is auctioned. To the average person, a 14" DBH diameter limit cut in hardwood stands does look MUCH better than a clearcut. In many of these situations, a true clearcut would be the best type of harvest plan but the low dollar value of standing pulpwood in this area combined with the lack of loggers who can profitably cut small diameter trees leads to not many true clearcuts being done.

At the other end of the cutting spectrum would be a light selective harvest. A good forester will mark and measure the junk trees in addition to the high value mature trees in order to improve the composition of the forest over time. In our area, even the best loggers will leave 30%-50% of these low value junk trees because their time is valuable and they need high production. Hence, the need arises for Timber Stand Improvement even after a well-performed light selective harvest(grape vines need cutting too). Some landowners think long-term and will pay to complete this service after a harvest and others will not.

For my business, I use my name followed by "Forestry Consulting". I chose this route over the "Forester" or "Forester (credentials)" option because it is more descriptive to the average person. I think anyone who uses the word Forester or Forestry Consulting as part of their business needs the basic educational qualifications as described above. Following that, it is up to the client to ask questions concerning the forester's experience and credentials and always ask for references if you are not sure.

Along this same line, there have been large legal judgements against both timber brokers and the mills they sell to when the timber broker pretends to act as an independent agent for the landowner but in reality is nothing more than a timber finder for one particular mill. Check out this web site for an example:
http://www.mslawyer.com/mssc/cases/20001122/9901799.html

Finally, Mr. Allen, I am glad your brother had succes with his timber harvest and the forester was skilled and provided a great service. But, state employees should not be performing services provided by private consulting foresters (there are quite a few in IL). It is philosophically wrong for consulting foresters in IL or any state to pay taxes to the state government and then have the government compete against them with below cost services. An analogy would be the state property department listing and selling your home at 2% commission or the doctors at the local VA hospital providing office visits for $10 to anyone who is sick. The only reason this still happens with forestry is that we consulting foresters are a small independent bunch and small in numbers. But we are working for this positive change.

[Buzz-sawyer]

i am not so sure that state employees should not be providing free services to its citizens.
 I can see why you would feel that way, since they are your direct competition,.
The us  postal service provides competition to ups and fed ex also. Should teat be eliminated?
I enjoy the service I pay for , which the state of Illinois provides to me via state foresters.
They provide hunting opertunities as well, is that unfair to game farms and shooting clubs?
Is it wrong for state police to investigate, unfairly competing with private investigators...........??

[Tom]

Good post, JR.

I think there is a reason for State Foresters to be involved in some land management or at least consultation.  Most of the landowners here are growing trees on small acreage. A "farm" may be from 10 to 100 acres, whereas the private foresters are only interested in catering to the 500 to 10,000 acre farms.  You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to get management advice from a bonafide Forester unless you have enough acreage to warrant his taking a day out of his "busy" schedule to spend a moment with you.  As small land-owners, we are pretty much on our own unless we can interest a State Forester in helping us out.  While the State Forester might not be able to spend the dedicated time warranted, he is more apt to be available and willing to spend time with you to suggest plans, design plantings, recommend care, help arrange harvests, etc.

Without the State Foresters, we small landowners would be without much help.

It's becoming even more difficult to interests State Foresters in small farms.  They have their future to look forward to, and have their eyes set on becoming the managers of the larger farms.   When they retire or even before, if they are gung-ho, they feel that they will be better compensated by a company or individual who owns thousands of acres than the ones who have 50.  I can't disagree with their logic but it still leaves a void in the Tree Farming society for available expertise.

[Texas Ranger]

Tom, obviously things are different in Florida.  Here in Texas I have helped on several lots in a subdivision, and I can get a couple of days work and pay out of ten acres or so, depending on what we are doing.  

Maybe y'all have to many or not enough foresters, or just pay 'em to DanG much.

[Texas Ranger]

And just for fun since this is my 1000 post, I would offer to come on over and do ya a plan, but think Florida may have me shut out because of registration.

[Tom]

How 'bout that, Tex.   You've become a 4 digit zero!  :D   1000
That's quite a few posts when it's commonly known that Texans are notorious for short conversations.  Most I've heard sounded like this.  

"yep".

Well, that's the way it is in the movies anyway.  Gary Cooper hardly ever said anything.  :D :D

I think our problem is a lack of Foresters.  With the demise of the paper mills and divestiture of the corporate owned forests, the only jobs available for a fledgling forester are getting to be in the Government sector.  It doesn't help that Foresters seem to be fairly inactive when it comes to marketing themselves to the public.

Perhaps the public sector hasn't enough money or isn't willing to pay enough to interest a Forester.  That would make a new graduate run the other way.  Perhaps the public isn't aware of the value of a Forester.  They get junk mail from the department stores every day about sales and  merchandise, almost to the point of harrasment.  I don't know of a single ad I've ever seen of a Forester looking for a client.

Perhaps Florida is just destined to become the Disney of the USA.  The wall to wall apartments and parking lots.  The corporate community.

Heck, we even import California oranges now. :-/

[SwampDonkey]

Tom,

Quite a number of us are glad to work on 15 acre lots, with preference  to 50 acres plus. But, if I were to give a landowner a hand on what to harvest from his 15 acre stand by tree marking and trail marking that's a full day's work and likely half the next by the time you have everything discussed with the owner. Most of my rates are based on production plus forseen expenses factored in.

I'm also pretty sure alot of foresters on here have advertised and continue to do so. I send more or less randomly selected mailings to landowners every 2 to 3 months. I advertise in a well known forestry magazine that alot of landowners subscribe to. Plus I attend woodlot owner meetings in the spring.

We are kind of in the same circumstance here with marketing boards that compete with services as well, sometimes below cost. But not really, in reality it's cost sharing among the membership. For instance on all wood sold and marketed off private land there is a 2.2 % levy that pays wages, less a 0.5 % portion going into forest management. You might never cut a stick of wood, but if you want to plant trees on an old feild you get the same subsidy as the guy that cuts 500 cords of wood per year. Also, you get free courses that others have contributed to by marketing their wood. On the same token there are the cut and leave types that clearcut land and sell it and the new owner wishes to have the regrowth thinned in 10 years. Do we deny these folks the opertunity because they want to improve his new woodlot, where someone else scalped it?

I agree with Jr on the fact that the owner is the boss, why would you want to work against the grain and shoot yourself in the foot?

Are our marketing boards competition? I don't feel the marketing board really competes with me because they will actually give me work, more work actually than they take away. My rates are very competitive and sensible. When I worked for the marketing board there was alot of running all over and not much revenue from that running, so that levy is needed in order to run the outfit and maintain vehicles. It has recently restructured itself to offer its services on a cost recovery basis with room for a small profit. Keep in  mind it's a not profit organization. It has to submit a marketing and management plan annually to a commission (forest products commission) that are a watch dog of the organization made up of private, industry and government members. ;)

cheers

[Ron Scott]

The Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc. Directory lists 14 foresters for Florida. I'm sure that there are many more who aren't members.

A forester should be willing to provide advice or assistance to any landowner that calls them. I've looked at many a small woodlots. Many times a small woodlot job has lead to a much larger job. One never knows how much forestland a landowner has when they call for assistance on what might be a small parcel.

Small parcels are often in the "publics view" and are a good place to demonstrate yourself as a "forester" with good forestry practices.

    

[jrdwyer]

Buzz,

It really takes creative accounting to add up the total cost of state government services (employee salaries, benefits, office space, trucks, bureaucracy, etc) and come to the conclusion that such forestry services are "free." What you are getting is subsidized service courtesy of all the other taxpayers who most likely have never heard of forestry, let alone ever use this service. If the state government actually had to charge their real cost of the service to the landowner, then I would have no competition whatsoever.

As an example, the State of Kentucky charges landowners $4 per thousand board feet marked for its timber marking service. Consultants generally charge 8-10% commisson on a timber sale. So using a conservative average stumpage price of $250/MBF, consultants charge around $25/MBF marked versus $4 for the state. Obviously, this is a subsidized service.  I have lost a number of really nice quality timber sales because of this.

Using your logic, it would seem reasonable for the State of IL to employ its own logging operators for private timber harvesting in order to guarantee to every citizen  that logging is done to the highest standards. Shall we set the skidding and hauling fee at $4/MBF?

Given the huge state and federal budget deficits currently in place, eliminating subsidized government services should be a priority for all citizens of this country.

And in case you were not aware of it, many state forestry budgets get 20%-50% of their revenue from the US Forest Service through State and Private Forestry. So in other words, all taxpayers in the US may well be subsidizing your local state forester.

Hopefully, the conservative administration, through lobbying efforts by consulting foresters, will use the threat of witholding this funding to stop subsidized forestry services at the state level. Their are plenty of other educational or extension opportunities for state foresters to work on that do not directly compete with consulting foresters.

[rebocardo]

JeffB (USA)
"There have been times over the years, that selling our high quality
veneer to the canadian market kept us from possibly closing up"

swampydonkey (Canada)
"And the situation in New Brunswick is that we wouldn't have the volume of veneer to even keep a veneer mill running"

Proof positive that paying jobs at a veener plant were exported to another country by shipping logs out of the country. Maybe it would have been easier to stay in business had the veener business stayed in the U.S.

To me a professional Forester does what is good for the forest and his country and making money comes in second.  It should be a passion, not a buck.

Someone that pretty much rapes or clear cuts the land of an unsuspecting land owner to send the logs overseas for his company/boss without generating jobs in his community is not a forester in my opinion. But, a money grubbing criminal.

Not only do I dislike it happening in the USA, I positively hate it happening in developing nations where local villages are starving to death and people do not even have firewood for cooking. While the guys doing all the dangerous work, including dealing with spiked trees, do not even make $5 a day sometimes, and can not even cloth their children.

imo, It is simply wrong.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Buzz,

It really takes creative accounting to add up the total cost of state government services (employee salaries, benefits, office space, trucks, bureaucracy, etc) and come to the conclusion that such forestry services are "free."

Free is relative term used in relation to charges made by Commercial foresters vs. state foresters.
In Illinois trees are considered crops and under that , are regulated as corn and beans


What you are getting is subsidized service courtesy of all the other taxpayers who most likely have never heard of forestry, let alone ever use this service. If the state government actually had to charge their real cost of the service to the landowner, then I would have no competition whatsoever.

My state charges NOTHING...There is no fee to residents...regarding the REAL cost of the services...they are paid Directly through  tax payed by timber sales


. Obviously, this is a subsidized service.  I have lost a number of really nice quality timber sales because of this.As I stated earlier,

I understand you feel the state is your direct competition...so all of your comments Are viewed in this light

Using your logic, it would seem reasonable for the State of IL to employ its own logging operators for private timber harvesting in order to guarantee to every citizen  that logging is done to the highest standards. Shall we set the skidding and hauling fee at $4/MBF?

I believe in supply and demand, My loggic states that the state of Illinois provides many agricultural services, and that the people requested them or enable them to do so. And that your argument that the state has no right to provide thwe services it does, is weak in that the state is in existence to Govern and regulate and serve the residents, therefore providing FREE timber services is no different thaan the soil management expert, or the crop analyst offering advice, it only serves to produce a stronger state.

Given the huge state and federal budget deficits currently in place, eliminating subsidized government services should be a priority for all citizens of this country.

Our state forestry program is self sufficient your argument is not relevant to it.

And in case you were not aware of it, many state forestry budgets get 20%-50% of their revenue from the US Forest Service

So? I have read the statutes that our logging laws are based on and to the best of my knowledge we recieve NO federal foestry money and are self sufficient

[Jeff]

Buzz, if your state forestry is paid for through taxes, it is certainly not "self sufficient"

[Buzz-sawyer]

Meaning within the context of the state Government,
I was replying to the assumption we recieved 20-50% of our funding from the federal government.
And the comment that forest management was being payed by people that dont know what forestry is.....Rather, it is definetly being payed for within the realm of people who are selling thier timber and managed in large part by loggers..
Self sufficient on state level , and payed out forestry/agricultural tax revenue Not by general fund.
Not self sufficent in regard to self propigation...ALL government is parasidic.



to put it plainly MANY people would be without ANY resource were it not for the helpful and decent folks like my district forester.....They guide the willing in the right direction , particularly the small timber lot owner....I

[Jeff]

I agree with jrdwyer on his explanation of "free". I have the opportunity to sit on a board of an organization that lets me have a peek at many of the costs of things having to do with public forestry outreach programs. I have also sat on commitees with a national reach as in the "Tree of Hope" project, the U.S. Capital tree project of a few years ago. (easy to find more about with a forum search)  The public got to do a lot of "Free" things involved with thiat program. As just an old mill hand, I was dumbfounded and confounded on the amount of moeny it takes to provide something to the public that is "Free"