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Rift sawn???  How to???

Started by Bibbyman, January 08, 2005, 09:45:49 AM

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Bibbyman

Must not be nothing on TV today to make an 8 year old topic about rift sawing so popular.

In the past 8 years no one has ask me to rift saw.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Dodgy Loner

I was thinking the same thing, Bibby. There is more discussion on this topic today than there was in the past 8 years :D But good discussion for sure. Many folks have made good suggestions as to where rift-sawn lumber is best used, but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak. I suppose we'll never know. I always get plenty of rift-sawn material when I'm quartersawing to supply whatever needs I have.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Bibbyman

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 12, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
..but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak.

My customers asking for rift sawn?  I said in my first and latest post that no one has ever asked me to rift saw. Not me.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

5quarter

I'm posting without reading first, so someone may have already mentioned it, but rift is used exclusively for square tapered legs, casegood frames and any component that has 2 adjoining faces that will show. true rift has the same appearence on the face and edge grain. very necessary in furniture making. I often size up logs with regard to how much rift I can get out of it. I often cut 9/4, esp. when I can get perfect rift (45°), as that is the most useful to me and the furniture guys I've sold to.
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POSTON WIDEHEAD

I'm just glad Farmers don't use Rift for barn siding...... :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The request for rift sawn is actually quite rare.  The common market prices and sales are for quarter and rift together.  As I think I mentioned, the NHLA does not have rift defined.

I worked for and with the furniture industry in Virginia for 17 years and I cannot recall any use or request for rift sawn lumber specifically.  Neither did they select rift from their incoming lumber.  This industry manufactured case goods, chairs, tables, reproductions, stair parts, kitchen cabinets, contract furniture, etc.  certainly small custom manufacturers will find specific uses for just rift, but it is a small market.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

KnotBB

Under Western Lumber Grading Rules there is no "quarter sawn" lumber.  The closest thing is what is called "vertical grain".  The grade is mostly an appearance grade, there is no slope of grain requirement. The slope of the rings can go as high 60 degrees off of what you you would call perfect quarter sawn.  The higher the ring count the more slope the rings can have.  The criteria is "If it looks quarter sawn, it is quarter sawn"  I've sold rough sawn to re-manufactures on that basis.

On that basis with a swing blade you can cut an entire old growth fir quarter sawn (vertical grain) and never move the log or saw.

VG fir and western hemlock are used extensively in making traditional wooden doors, windows and for ladder stock because of the stability.
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

WDH

I like the linearity and straight lines of the growth rings in rift sawn lumber.  I have some oak wainscott and I like all the variation in appearance of the flatsawn, rift, and quartersawn boards on the wall.  Looks (and is) custom made rather than store-bought.
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beenthere

KnotBB
You are talking softwood grades, right?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

captain_crunch

Just take the word Gay and see how much meaning has changed in 30 years ::) ::) ::) !/4 sawn is verticle grain in old days the rest were boards
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Peter Drouin

I have had guys want rift sawn w oak for wooden boats, they want a 45[growth rings] to the face only, now try to cut ALL the log [rift cut] not just some of it,  :D :D
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

KnotBB and others,
I am sorry that I was not totally clear.  Slope of grain (SOG) is a grading criteria where strength is an issue.  SOG  refers to the lengthwise deviation of grain and has nothing to do with quarter sawing  or flat sawing.   A few degrees of SOG (1 in 12) has a big effect on strength...much more than the issue about quartersawn or flatsawn grain strength.

I agree that VG is the regional term for quartersawn.  Even with VG, there is also a SOG concern, as well as compression wood, knots, etc.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

LeeB

I though that SOG refered more to bastard grain than qs versus rs.?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

beenthere

Two different "grains". Slope of grain (SOG) has to do with the fibers oriented lengthwise to the log or board,
whereas the other (bastard, quarter sawn, rift, flat, vertical) has to do with the annual ring orientation with respect to a board sawn from a log.

The spiral grain seen in a log on the surface is indication of SOG, for example.  Twist in a board results usually from SOG that isn't straight with the long axis of the tree.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The word "grain" has seven different meanings, so there is room for confusion indeed.  "Been there" has a good explanation of the two meanings in this discussion.

As another example, we sometimes call oak as having heavy grain, coarse grain, or just a grainy species, referring to the non-smoothness of the sanded surface.  I remember having to learn to write on a single sheet of paper on an oak desk...awfully hard to make your writing look smooth.  Kids today have it easy...in fact, I heard that they may not even have to learn to write cursive.  But back to the topic...Maple has a smooth grain.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

LeeB

Most of them don't learn how to spell, let alone write in cursive.  :(
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

KnotBB

Quote from: beenthere on January 12, 2013, 10:49:06 PM
KnotBB
You are talking softwood grades, right?

Yes soft wood grades. 

The west has so little hard wood that there is no "ruling" body for grading hardwood.  There is no "book"  There is a Western Hardwood Assoc that does give classes in grading (sometimes) but mostly we "borrow" eastern grading verbiage. There are no inspectors that I know or have heard of. Much of what passes for grading comes out of the rules for western soft wood and they don't really apply to our hard woods.  The western hardwoods get relegated to the back porch.  The one exception I know of is red alder.  Special grading rules apply.
As an example:  Asking for quarter sawn Douglas fir is a nonsensical request.  No such thing.  And like wise it probably doesn't make any sense to ask for vertical grain oak. 

Don't get the wrong impression though. I have a standing order for quarter sawn tone woods and I understand what the customer wants.  We've talked about it and I'm not going to get picky because of terms.  If he wants quarter sawn old growth D.fir that's what he gets even if he can't show it to me in the grade book.

To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

ely

first, i am glad to have the FF, i like these old topics, when i seen the post by Tom my heart gave a big jump... happy i can still enjoy his words on here.

as to the topic, i read a book once that said any board that had end grain from 90 -to 45 degree was quarter sawn and any that was not 45 was considered bastard cut, or rift sawn.

i probably do not adhere to many woodworking rules, because i grade lumber differently from others. its either qsawn, lumber, or propellers.
if the propellers are not too bad, they go inside the closets,if they are too bad i shorten them up for the stove. ;D

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

One issue is that a piece of lumber can have flat grain (0 to 45 degrees) and rift and quartersawn.  I have looked for a definition of bastard sawn and do not seem able to find an authoritative one.

Here is a picture of how to quartersaw; qsawn is the top back log.



 
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Jeff

I think one should add, that Plain Sawn and Flat Sawn are two different terminologies as I understand it. Flat sawn is more a description of the lumber, where plain sawn is more of the process of the sawing. Plain sawing will/can still generate some quartersawn lumber. What I mean to say is, quarter sawn, can be plain sawn.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Bibbyman on January 12, 2013, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 12, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
..but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak.

My customers asking for rift sawn?  I said in my first and latest post that no one has ever asked me to rift saw. Not me.

I misinterpreted your first post. The way you were asking questions made it sound like you had a new customer who wanted rift-sawn lumber.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

rmack

This thread has filled in a lot of missing pieces for me, thanks everyone. :P
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Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

In most U.S. writing and speaking, the term used is flat sawing, while in Europe, Africa, and Canada writing and conversation, we more often see and hear the term plain sawing.  I cannot recall hearing flat sawing ever in Europe in my travels, but I did not live there.  Sometimes it is called slash sawing.  All three are synonymous.  The lumber produced is also called flatsawn or plainsawn.

Another variable term is live sawing versus through-and-thorugh sawing, both meaning the same technique.  Similarly, grade sawing and sawing-around are both the same.  The list goes on, probably due to regional differences that developed before national or global travel and communication was popular.  In 1978, William Dean published TERMS OF THE TRADE which had the vocabulary for  logging and lumbering industries.  It was revised in 1984.  Some of the terms in our industry are really weird and plentiful too.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Jeff

In an American High school shop class in the 70's, we were taught the term plain sawing. Perhaps not going to college, and going right on to working in a sawmill, perhaps I did not receive the proper re-education. The point I was getting at though, is that while plain sawing, there can be quarter sawn material generated.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

drobertson

If I may pipe in, I have enjoyed the post.  And I have to say that my experience in sawing can be attributed to most of what gene W. has written since around 03'.  I studied, and listened to many wood workers while in the tooling trade, mainly injection molds.  And as we all know most of us come from a variety of backgrounds.  The issue with rift sawn, q-sawn and flat sawn or plain sawn,  depends solely on the one doing the finish work.  I feel we as sawyers should deliver the required product.  I have found in my experience, to give this type of product there will be waste. As will there be in q-sawn.  the main issue I have encountered is dealing with the side stress that comes from boards cut in this fashion.  I have learned how to manage it, but it comes with a loss in bd/log, now maybe I am just a dummy, most likely so, but the boards are straight, and the folks are happy.  whatever one wants I try to deliver. Nothing in life is guarenteed, except the end of it. Standards are in place to keep a status quo, and this is all we can try to do.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

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