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8/4 for 2x? Please comfirm.

Started by Brad_bb, December 12, 2017, 08:56:49 AM

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Brad_bb

So if I'm cutting to end up with Ash 2x8's, are you guys going to cut them 8/4?  I'm cutting dead/dying white Ash.  Another sawyer questioned why I'm cutting so thick.  My impression in the past from this forum was that that was what you needed to do to end up at a finished, straight 1.5" after jointing/planing.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

uler3161

I would think that's excessive, but I'm more of a softwood guy so I'm not sure how my experience compares. I cut softwood at about 1 7/8 (or even a little shy of that) and it dries and planes fine to 1.5.  What ash I have cut was 4/4 and planed out fine to 3/4. And if I understand what I've read about quarter scales, the quarter scale I use is thinner than a hardwood quarter scale.
1989 LT40HD, WoodMaster 718

Dan

Ron Wenrich

8/4 should surface down to to 1 3/4" for S2S.  If you are cutting for the grade market, thickness should be a heavy 2 1/8", although I cut mine around 2 3/16" for the grade market.  You're not doing the grade market, so you could cut a lot less than that, especially if it is going to be rough cut. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Blackhawk1

What Ron said is exactly what I do at my mill
Doug Caroselli
512-738-1770

Brad_bb

But as I said, I'm finishing at 1.5", not 1.75".
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Don P

I recently cut poplar to 1-3/4", it's drying and will be planed to 1-1/2 for a barn floor. It's random width right now up to around 12" wide. That has worked for me in the past.

scsmith42

Brad, you should be able to mill at 1-7/8 green to S2S dry at 1-1/2" (non quartersawn).  If the logs have a lot of defects increase your thickness by 1/8" or so.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

WDH

I cut 3/8" over what I want the minimum finished thickness to be.  So, if I want a full 2" thick finished slab after planing, I saw at 2 3/8" thick.  If I want a minimum of 3/4" thick planed and finished, I cut at 1 1/8".  The good thing is that in the case of 4/4, 75% of the boards will clean up to 15/16" and 95% will clean up to 7/8".

I have planed a lot of hardwood sawn at a full 1" thick (sawn by others), and I don't like it.  After some shrinkage from drying, it can be a struggle to get the wood cleaned up to 3/4". 

Here is a related thread that has some interesting discussion. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,92471.msg1423706.html#msg1423706
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

4x4American

For hardwood I generally cut 1/8" over unless otherwise specified by the customer, softwood I generally cut right on the money, unless specified by the customer.  There is one hardwood shop I sell to that always wants 8/4 and 10/4 cut 1/4" plump.  12/4 and up he wants 1/2" plump.  Which is fine but I scale it with the extra thickness requested, otherwise I'd lose footage aka monneeyy
Boy, back in my day..

Ron Wenrich

I always cut plump on the heavier thicknesses in grade lumber.  I've cut up to 16/4.  Never did I charge more than market value, which is higher on the heavier grades.  I always looked at the heavier thickness as sawdust left on the lumber.  In addition, I made less cuts, which lowered my production costs.  I don't see where I would loose footage or money. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Brad_bb

Thanks everybody.  I think 8/4 is a safe number in case of any defects/movement.  I might get away with 7/4, but maybe not always.  8/4 is just a bit more material to remove while planing.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

4x4American

The way I look at it, if I was cutting 12/4 at 3-1/2 and scaling it at 3" thats 1/2" of footage lost on each piece.  On the wholesale market I don't really set the price but for retail, why not?
Boy, back in my day..

Ron Wenrich

Simply because its an industry standard.  A consumer should be able to go to any outlet and expect to get the same treatment from every vendor.  There may be a difference in the way things are produced, and that would be reflected in the price per bf.  Adding a surcharge in footage is just a way of adjusting the price without the consumer being aware.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

4x4American

No the customer is aware I told him up front when he asked it to be a 1/4" more plump than I'd usually make it I said fine but I'm scaling it into the piece and he said fine.  And I only scaled the extra 1/4" not the full 1/2" over 3" as 3-1/4" is standard.  You have to understand also that this guy buys in a lot of hardwood and has been in business for many years, I'm not gonna sneak anyhing by him nor would I try.  The only 12/4 I sell to him is in bartop slabs and he is not afraid to charge his customers for them.  Last time I sold him walnut slabs he paid me $4/bf rough/green delivered.  Sent a lady over there who wanted to buy some slabs but kiln dried and planed, unfinished.  She got a quote for a few pieces that ranged from $60/bf to $75/bf.  Look that up in your funk and wagonel (old saying)!  I'm in biz to make money so if the customer wants something different, fine, but get out your check book.  In the pallet world every 1/16" is scaled, so it's not like it's an unheard of practice.  You may choose to raise the price per bf, I may choose to scale what extra wood I am actually selling to them (that I paid for to the logger when he brought it to me)...you can raise the price on the front half or the back half long as they know up front I don't see the difference.  In fact I think my way more accurately charges the customer for what they asked for, and when you compare your logs bought bf to the lumber sold bf it will also more accurately show where the footage went.
Boy, back in my day..

WDH

When I sell a finished slab that has been kiln dried and planed to a full 2" thick, I scale that slab as a 9/4 board.  It was sawn at 2 3/8" thick.  So I calculate the surface square feet and multiply that by 2.25 or 2 1/4".  The extra 1/8" over is not scaled. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Don P

Here nor there but something Tom ran into popped into mind. He had a kind of "sharp" customer that wanted to pay for very plump at 4/4 price. He was going to turn it around as 5/4.
Guess who was sharper  :D
Nothing we are talking about here just something else to be mindful of.

Resonator

Funk and W-A-G-N-A-L-L-S Dictionary (had to look it up in, well, you know...)    :)
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

Ron Wenrich

Personally, I don't really care how much someone charges for wood, or how much you make.  What I do care about is the eyeballs that look at this website.  They see guys that say they won't pay anything for logs, then others that turn around talking about how much they charge for lumber.  I look at how that reflects on us as a profession.  We can either be looked at as an honest profession or we can be looked at as a bunch of charlatans.  I spent a lifetime trying to reflect the former.   

When a customer goes to Home Depot or Lowe's they know how much a 2x4 costs, but when they go to their local mill, it depends.  As a professional, it is my responsibility to explain the variables to the consumer.  Same goes for whether I'm marking timber or selling lumber.  What I hope to do is to promote a professional impression of those that embark on the dissection of trees.  To me, there has to be some sense of consistency. 

I understand there are variables in specialty markets.  Value is always the price that a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller of any product.  Those are outliers of normal markets.  If anyone can make a business plan that is viable for only those outliers, my hat is off to them.  I've tried that market, and it is really tough for a 24/7 market.  I do know a few that have done it and many that have failed.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

D6c

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 13, 2017, 06:25:26 PM
Personally, I don't really care how much someone charges for wood, or how much you make.  What I do care about is the eyeballs that look at this website.  They see guys that say they won't pay anything for logs, then others that turn around talking about how much they charge for lumber.  I look at how that reflects on us as a profession.  We can either be looked at as an honest profession or we can be looked at as a bunch of charlatans.  I spent a lifetime trying to reflect the former.   

When a customer goes to Home Depot or Lowe's they know how much a 2x4 costs, but when they go to their local mill, it depends.  As a professional, it is my responsibility to explain the variables to the consumer.  Same goes for whether I'm marking timber or selling lumber.  What I hope to do is to promote a professional impression of those that embark on the dissection of trees.  To me, there has to be some sense of consistency. 

I understand there are variables in specialty markets.  Value is always the price that a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller of any product.  Those are outliers of normal markets.  If anyone can make a business plan that is viable for only those outliers, my hat is off to them.  I've tried that market, and it is really tough for a 24/7 market.  I do know a few that have done it and many that have failed.

Keep in mind that a good many of the members here aren't fully in the business of selling lumber, myself included, and that in a lot of areas there isn't much of an established sawmill industry.  A lot of the discussion around price comes from guys like myself that might only occasionally sell lumber and don't have a market to establish price.
Nothing against your point, but I suspect a lot of us here aren't seasoned professionals.

WV Sawmiller

Doc,

   I respect and appreciate everything you do for us here on the FF and your other contributions to the forestry and sawing industry but I am with D6c on this issue.

   I am one of those who say "I don't buy logs." I say that because I have my own trees on my property and can go cut what I need when I need them. I will take "free" logs (Based on the labor, equipment cost and expense to go get them I am not sure I ever really got a free log) from people and I will saw some high value logs on shares. I do not make my living with my sawmill.  If I did it full time as a sole or primary source of income I would certainly expect to pay fair prices for logs as a cost of doing business. My primary market is providing a mobile sawing service but I do sell a little lumber I salvage or thin off my property and any I obtain from others. A lot of the service I sell is for someone to cut his own logs off his property and saw them into lumber for his projects. He can then get the self satisfaction and brag to others "Everything in this project came off this property by my efforts." He might could have bought lumber at the big box stores cheaper but he would not have that self-satisfaction. That's a specialty market/service.

   Thanks for keeping us in line and educated.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

4x4American

Ron,


I respect your opinion and I always look forward to reading your posts as you seem to have a vast knowledge of the sawmill business. 


But, on this issue, I disagree.  I understand that it is industry standard to saw a little bit plump, but when they ask for 1/4" above the industry standard of plumpitude, I think most can understand where I'm coming from when I want to account for the scale of that.  I buy logs on the international 1/4" rule, not the international 1/2" rule.  I'm not bragging that I charge em up to the moon and down again, I'm simply stating that I'm not giving away free lumber.  Like Don P is saying, certain people will figure it out and take advantage.  I just got off the phone with my biggest log supplier (who also has a sawmill).  I asked him what he thought was the right way to do it.  And he said that it only makes sense to charge for the additional footage that you otherwise wouldn't be adding into the lumber.  It would be giving away free wood.  I always give a bit extra, but when you give too much extra they figure it out and they order less.  He sells alot of firewood.  He tells me that he gives an extra wheelbarrow load of wood on top of the cord for good measure.  He says he don't give no more than that because then they will get wise to it and order less, and I think it's the same principle.  Just like if someone says a board wasn't good enough and they want it replaced (1/100 customers).  That's fine, bring the bad board back and I'll swap you into a good one.  I had one customer who I sold him enough trailer decking for him to redeck 5 or 6 of his trailers.  He called me up and said one of the boards had holes in them and he needed one more 2x8.  I said fine bring it back and I'll replace it.  Well he sent his worker back with two little cut outs that had two little golf ball sized holes.  They tried to pull a fast one on me.  So I did him one better, I gave him a good board back, and next time he calls, trailer decking price has gone up.  I won't forget.  But moral of my story is people try to take advantage and I try to put the kabosh to that and I don't think the loggers really care.  Loggers have so many markets around here that if they don't like my price they can drive within 20 miles of my mill and get 10 different price options.  Anyways, I hope this isn't too jumbled but that's how my brain works.
Boy, back in my day..

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