Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber

[chevytaHOE5674]

There are plenty of good loggers out there. The trouble is if your a landowner that knows next to nothing about forestry how do you know a good one from a bad one? The same could be said for foresters but at some point you have to put some trust in somebody and somebody who isn't taking a cut of the profits is usually easier to trust.

[Jeff]

 OH logger, are you interested in working with a landowner that has no intentions of EVER cutting his timber in your life time but wants to manage it for wildlife or other purposes other than timber. Are you educated in all resources that make up that owners forest land and willing to trade your time with an owner that wants to sell you timber for the one that does not?  A forester is hired to manage the forest or educate the owner on how to do it., not necessarily to cut it.  If the time come to cut it, he will know many many loggers and know many markets.   If the owner calls a logger, there he is. If he calls a forester, there he is.  Its his choice.   I've been in the Forest Products business my entire working life, in the mill in the woods, now owning my own land, not much more than mentioned here. In all honesty, there is not a logger in the world, no matter how honest, and I've known some great ones, that I would call first, so it has nothing to do with honesty, it has to do with options and decision making for the future.

[Abethetenacious]

I think you just threw every logger under the bus, I should know I lived in one for over 3 years. I could not walk for 3.5 months. I came back from life altering injuries to be lumped in with people whom I call brothers, but you deem incompetent. And I highlight, there is no Logger you would call 1st!!!!!!!! This from the founder of the forestry forum. I would like to add, all this over 17 acres that I doubt are commercially viable.

[Jeff]

You are one step from going away. Knock it the hell off.  I never threw anyone under any bus. You are turning out to be a real jerk I do not want in my house. Last time. Make the choice.

[Jeff]

ah, never mind. I make the choices around here. Yer gone.

[John Mc]

I think you missed his point entirely Abethetenacious, and are ascribing motives to someone who you don't yet know or understand.. The reason he would not call a logger first is because he would not yet have made the decision to log nor decided what his goals are for the property. You call a forester to help guide you through your decision-making process. IF the decision is to log, THAT's when you call a logger. 

I don't call the excavator to dig the foundation for a house until I have a plan for what I want to build. I also don't call the excavator to help me decide what I wanted or to design the house. That doesn't mean I don't like or respect excavators, it just means I'm not yet to the point where I need their expertise. When it does come time to dig the foundation, I'm going to do my best to hire a good excavator, and you can bet that if he/she has suggestions for tweaks to make to make things work better or go more smoothly, I'm going to give a good listen.

[Corley5]

  A forester will cover a loggers butt too.  I did a job once upon a time and I wanted the landowner to have a forester mark the timber, oversee etc because it was part of a conservation plan.  There was $$$ in the program for a forester but he didn't want to pay the % the forester wanted.  There was more money to be had in his pocket that way.  So I cut his trees the way I'd have cut my own and he wasn't happy with what I did.  He really didn't like it when he wanted ME to rent a chipper and clean up the tops ALONG his trails at MY expense and I told him I was a logger not a landscaper.  The tops had already been lopped flat.  There were three more units that could have been cut.  It was part of an NRCS conservation program plan.  He never got the rest cut and didn't get the payment because the plan wasn't completed.  The NRCS rep told me later I'd done a good job, he has a forestry background, and that it was Mrs. Landowner who really didn't like what a woods looked like after a harvest.  As a logger I like having an independent forester looking over my shoulder and having my back.  What I don't like is a forester that a pimps a logger or vice versa.

[curdog]

OH LOGGER I don't think anyone on this forum has said loggers are dishonest,  and if I gave that impression by recommending a forester that is not my intention. I have people that I consider friends and close family that are loggers.
I'm not a forester, but I work for a state forestry agency that advises landowners on managing timber. I look at a lot of timber annually and give recommendations. My goal is similar to yours as I look at every property as if it's mine and every landowner needing advice as if they were in my family.
When I look at a tract,  I explain hiring a consulting forester or working directly with a logger. I think both options work, but it just depends on a landowners comfort level, knowledge and time they have. When I recommend a consulting forester,  it's not that I feel they would get taken advantage of,  but they may live in another state,  may have no interest in lining up someone to do the work or a list of other reasons.
Some landowners are better off dealing directly with a logger,  and I'll tell them if they feel comfortable,  that it would be their best bet. My job is to give them the information and answer questions and explain the different options they have.
But I look at many properties, that aren't ready for harvest,  and won't be until after I retire and spend my days fishing. And just as many that landowners have no interest in harvesting. I will explain the benefits of cutting timber,  sometimes they realize that they would benefit from it, other times not.
I don't know why foresters would "bad mouth  loggers " , as they are the ones carrying out the recommendations given by foresters. There can be all the advice in the world to cut timber, but if there's no one to carry it out, it does no good. I've learned a lot by talking to loggers about their experiences, the marketing of timber products and a list of other things. That's why I enjoy this forum so much,  is the vast amount of knowledge from all aspects of the forestry world.

[nativewolf]

Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.

As a forester that deals with a lot of high grades in Virginia, 5-7 generations of them actually as they have been cutting forest here for hundreds of years, I can say that a good clearcut can be very helpful.  I'm actually going back to "selective cuts" on two properties and clearcut and replant.  The highgrades become choked with grape, autumn olive, blackberry, wild rose and are so dense that nothing has emerged even after 10+ years.  This is on sites where the young poplar should have been pushing 20-30 feet.  Virtually nothing emerged above the thickets.  Not all the foresters fault, lots of wind blew down much of the remaining "leave" trees but the "leave" trees would never have shaded the crap out anyway.  What makes it worse the few remaining nice trees are all choked with grape vines now.  Thousands of acres like this in my county alone.  I'd say selective logging is quickly going to become impossible unless we are doing 10% harvest. 

Basically Mike is dealing with the same and I think he is spot on, clearcut would be a better option in many cases and replanting is cheap and a chance to insert better genetics back onto the property.

[nativewolf]

ah, never mind. I make the choices around here. Yer gone.

Thanks Jeff.  Didn't see you had pulled the trigger til after I posted.  Sad really, Mike had a very good point and I face the same issues as Mike, maybe even worse because here it is likely to have been a site factor since 1700 or so.  200 years of woodlot management by people that often did not even own the woodlot. 

[Logger RK]

I cut private land for many years now. I do think a professional forester being involved is a good thing. Usually when a landowner gets ahold of me about logging there land I'll refer them to are local DNR office. Or I have some information I can give them of there different options. And it's a shame when I see & hear what a small few of the fly by night logger's do. It makes all us Logger's look bad.

[WDH]

A loggers job is to harvest timber.  I know many that are consummate professionals.  A landowner's job is to establish objectives and goals for their property.  A Forester's job is to assist the landowner in the science of Forestry, Ecology, and Wildlife management in understanding all the options to achieve those goals and objectives.  Most Foresters also know the marketplace, just like a Realtor does when you are selling a house, so that the landowner becomes knowledgeable of the value of their timber assets to understand the market value of such so that when the landowner sells, they are educated and know the value of what they are selling.

It is always good business to know the value of what you are selling before you sell it (New Old Saying).

[mike_belben]

Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit."  Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit."    Everything 12+ goes. 

If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small.

A true diameter limit cut removes ALL trees over a certain diameter even the junk so you aren't "high grading" you are just choosing a different management style. So given the proper rotation length (stand harvested with a diameter limit cut has a much much longer harvest interval) it isn't the worst thing. I can show you stands that were D limit cut and given 60+ years to grow and they look about the same as stands that were cut every 10 years and thinned throughout the D range.

The risk with diameter limit cut is stalled out old trees that dont ever achieve cut limit diameter.   I have tons of these.  Maybe its only a few per acre the first go round.  Then theres more... And more.  Eventually you shift the avg growth rate of that property downward as a collection of slow growing trees keeps escaping the barber.  Diameter limit can thus lower avg growth rate if messed up a few times.

Not to mention, how uneconomical is it for a crew to try working around a bunch of leave trees that will never produce? This inneficiency is costing the landowner and the logger money that will never be recuperated.  I have tons of big bumper trees.  If a skidder tears the bark off one side and theres a limb on the other its already a 2SC tree on its best day.  Cull the dang thing already.  No one should give up a patch of dirt for 50 more yrs to harvest a tie log.


I think diameter limit cutting needs an enhancement..  Mark or tag the leave trees with a date and diameter.  This way the next marking can accurately determine if that tree has an acceptable growth rate to keep or cull.  If i were farming hay, i wouldnt accept a big patch that only grows 6" when the rest is knee high.  Id remedy that.  Since hay is clearcut and regen, anyone can identify this problem.  Not see easy in select thinning unless meticulously implemented.  Its hard to be a profitable logger and a meticulous one IMO.

I dont begrudge anyone who wants their forest for a certain use that isnt sawlogs.  But if it is for sawlogs than i have to be rational and goal oriented.  If the goal is to produce maximum dollar value then maximum growth rate is a priority.  In clear cut/regen that is easily determined since all trees started at once and are easily compared to decide keepers vs culls.   Who is keeping tabs on growth rates of individual trees in a thinning environment?  Maybe some do but i havent experienced it.  Maybe native wolf and i are seeing something more confined to appalachia where there is a ton of mills wanting logs and a lot of poorer people with substantial land that need money.   I dunno man.  Theres a bajillion stems here.  Just not many big straight ones. 


Im shifting my own backyard high grade repair strategy from one of culling the junk, into one of hingecutting it to make deer corridors, bedding and food trails. Its gonna be a long time before a sawlog puts meat on our table. 

[jwilly3879]

I hate it when we do a really nice job and leave a bunch of good smaller diameter trees than will mature into valuable timber and then drive by months or a year later and see the whole roadside decimated.

Maybe the answer is to flatten the roadside so it looks like nothing is left.

Asked a property owner where we had cut why he had someone else come in a year later and destroy the lot. His response was we left to many $$ standing, looked good after the pulp was removed, now it looks like a moonscape.

[mike_belben]

That REALLY sucks. :[

[Claybraker]

Yep, sometimes us landowners can be our own worst enemy.  My sister-in-law is a financial planner, and one of her common complaints is the clients that try and chase yield.  Start with a well diversified portfolio, that should do well over time, and then when the market hits a snag, they change the asset allocation.  Just like with managing an investment portfolio,  managing timberland requires a long perspective to maximize yield.

[WDH]

Yes, a good bit of the problem is landowners who only care about the most money that they can get TODAY.

[coxy]

Yes, a good bit of the problem is landowners who only care about the most money that they can get TODAY.

thank you  I was waiting for someone to say that 

[Puffergas]

Sometimes I poke around the dark web and a few months ago I learned that there are real trolls. There are instructions on troll methods and how to disrupt a forum or what ever. I guess some do it as a hobby and some have an agenda. Strange world.

[mike_belben]

Look into russian troll farms.

Hey I bet they need management plans too!

[Puffergas]

Well, out looks like the Internet Research Agency has a plan in place. Got them working 12 hours a day. What's next?

[Southside]

One point to add to the clear cut debate, and I don't have the answer, is the future market.  Around here the most popular method is clear cut, no matter the stand - hard wood, pine, mixed,  and re-plant it all to pine.   So we are loosing our high value hardwood stands while at the same time the market demand for pulp and framing material is either remaining stagnant or shrinking.  Right now we are experiencing a bubble in production from all the early '90's planting and there is so much pine on the market locally that prices are below 2008/2009 levels.  What is going to happen in 25 or 30 years?  Personally I think owning a commercial pine mill in about 23 years would be a great place to be as the supply will far out weigh the demand and the mill will be able to set the price quite low.  Of course that is assuming the Uzbekistan Horny Sprinkled Pine Beetle does not clear it's way through customs and have a grand old time leaving behind a landscape that makes the moon look forested.   

[mike_belben]

Not the uzbek horny sprinkled pine beetle! 

So much quarantine.

[Abeman]

As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones. When clear-cutting, is nothing left behind, no seed trees? Would I expect the logger to plant after their complete with the harvest or would they leave that to me?

[Lumberjohn]

In NY the lot would regenerate on its own, no planting needed.