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Sothern Yellow Pine standing dead is it rotten?

Started by Georgia088, December 06, 2017, 08:09:21 AM

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Georgia088

I had a standing dead SYP that I cut down yesterday.  Not sure how long its been dead, possibly a year, but I would think no longer.  I was hoping to put it on my homemade mill to saw it up, but after cutting it, I am not sure if the lumber would be good.  Its about 20 inches in diameter at the bottom.  You can definitely tell that the core looks different once you get 8' 16' up the tree.  It looks like the core is solid, but the outside looks questionable.  Any way to check to see if its good?  Don't have many logs to saw so I hate to waste it, but don't want to have lumber that is no good. 

Thanks!

WV Sawmiller

   I always found it easy enough to tell with a hatchet or ax. Just start chopping into the sapwood to determine how solid it is. I'd always expect the heart of a pine to be much denser and more solid than the sapwood. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Savannahdan

Can you post some pictures of some of the lumber you've cut?  Others may be more familiar with what you might get with standing dead SYP.  Where are you in Georgia?  There might be a FF member close by that can look at it.  I see WV Sawmiller has responded while I was preparing my response.
Husqvarna 3120XP, Makita DCS7901 Chainsaw, 30" & 56" Granberg Chain Saw Mill, Logosol M8 Farmers Mill

Magicman

If it did not break when felled is a good sign that it is OK, but you still may have to slab heavy.  Bad wood also acts like a mini sponge and holds excess water.  Yes, chopping into it will determine if it is solid.  If a knife point goes much deeper than 1/8th" slab deeper.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Georgia088

I will try and get some pictures up, but I haven't cut into it yet.  It did break when it was cut down.  However, where I cut the log to saw was several feet toward the base from where it broke.  Thanks!

Magicman

Some of it may be OK depending upon the use, but the tree breaking tells you that it is certainly not structurally strong.  I mostly saw framing lumber and normally do not saw logs from trees that break.  Wall paneling, etc. would be OK.

The loss will be great but slab heavy and get into the heartwood.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Don P

A quick way we check suspect old structural lumber is the "pick test". Take an ice pick, awl or I prefer one of those very tiny flat screwdrivers. Drive it under the wood and lift a flake. If it lifts a long fiber the wood is good. If it breaks over the pick, short and brash, it's decayed.

drobertson

I've seen it both ways, mostly standing ones however are much more likely to be solid than ones that are laying.  Fact is I've sawn some standing dead pine that was pitch perfect,,and as well as I've seen logs that had really soft wood on portions it where as the opposite side was rock solid. Pretty much is a fall and buck to length, often times you can tell its integrity while cutting to length, all in all, its worth the effort most of the time,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Den-Den

Good advice above.  My "rule of thumb" is it will be good if the bark, branches and pine cones are still on the tree before it is cut down.  If it still has needles, it will be very good.  If some of the bark has fell off, I expect it to be junk.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

crowhill

I cut a standing white pine once had brown needles and a lightning strike mark from top to bottom. Needles hadn't been brown for many weeks. There was no moisture or sap in that tree, was as solid as could be. Also had a balsam on my Dad's lawn that was struck by lightning turning it into millions of toothpick sized pieces but the needles stayed green.
TimberKing B-20, Kubota M-4900 w/FEL with tooth bar, hyd thumb and forks, Farmi winch, 4 chain saws.

Peter Drouin

Imo, Dead trees are junk. Mills don't buy them for a reason. I don't buy them.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

drobertson

What many folks don't know about SYP, meaning "southern" is many times the pitch in these petrify, when sawn, they almost if I may use the comparison to treated telephone poles, they are solid, and stout. As to dead standing red and white oak, I've seen the same too, some crap, others, bad to the bone rich in color and strength.  And often time with character that can't be mimicked any other way,, just saying I would give it a look, it should not be rocket science to see if its solid or dote,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Kbeitz

I'll take a dead standing tree anyday... You never know until you open it up.
Each of these pictures come from trees that has been dead for a long time.
Some was still standing and some was on the ground.

Maple.



 

Walnut...



 



 

W.Pine



 



 

Hemlock...



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Drarnold

Georgia088 I picked up a longleaf pine log from a neighbor that said it had been standing dead 2 years before they had a tree service take it down.  Terrible looking on the outside.  Dry, soft, and full of worm and sawyer beetle holes.  Didn't think I would get much but once I got past the first 2 inches of sapwood and into the heart it was almost solid heart pine. The boards would make great fat lightered but just it was just as beautiful as the old growth stuff.  I reckon if the heartwood looks solid you ought to give it a shot.

WDH

A SYP has to be pretty old to develop heartwood.  Since the stem broke when you felled it, that indicates that it is not old enough to have had heartwood formation.  Sounds like an iffy proposition to me.  I saw lots of dead pine, and when the stem breaks upon felling, I have found that it is best to let it lay.  Once the bark starts falling off while the dead tree is still standing, the stem is already pretty far gone in our Georgia climate, hot and humid.  In other parts of the country, trees can stand dead a year or two, sometimes more, and still be sound.  It depends a lot on where you are and the climate.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ga Mtn Man

"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

WDH

The "bole" of the tree.  The sawable section of the tree.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

pineywoods

A large percentage of the logs I saw are standing dead southern yellow pine. If there are dead limbs on the ground around the base, leave it be. Otherwise, the only way to tell for sure is to put a sawblade to the log. Time doesn't seem to be much of a factor, some will go punky in just a few months, others shed the bark and stand much longer, and are still solid. My opinion is it depends on how the tree died, slowly from a bug infestion or suddenly from a lightening strike..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Magicman

Yes, there are good and bad dead trees.  Probably 75% of my sawing is Beetle Killed SYP, and a great majority of that is framing lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

drobertson

No doubt about it, they just have to be cut into, I mean many folks are not sawing thousands of board feet a day, day in and day out, so logs do at times get soft, and I will say each one unless just absolutely obviously just rotted out, its a potential gem. I will also say, I've sawn some dead standing, SYP that honestly, at first glance of the boards that came off, you would think I sawed treated lumber.  I've also found its always been the pine with the orange(ish) heart center, I'm no expert, I just know I messed with stuff that was a waste of time, while others made me smile.  I wish I still had my mill, bout all have to say about that.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

starmac

Am I missing something here? Is there something different about syp, that makes it where you can't tell if it is solid or not when cutting down and bucking to log length?

Our spruce will get a kind of rot, usually just in the stump in live trees. It is easy enough to tell with the saw, even the saw on the dangle head processor, you can tell by the color of the sawdust coming out, no need to even cut all the way through, so the operator just moves up a foot or two until he gets into clear wood before cutting the butt off.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

coach08

Georgia088    IF your werent brain dead you would know that pine is rotten....... so get it off my mill!!! :D :D

WDH

Age of the tree has a lot to do with it.  Young, fast grown trees do not last long.  Plantation trees do not last long.  The natural ones with tight rings will hold on much longer.  The slower the growth, the higher proportion of the dense latewood to the less dense earlywood, and the greater proportion of the latewood (the dark bands) contains more pitch which slows down the rot process. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Don P

Latewood proportion, density, is not directly related to growth rate in softwoods


In ring porous hardwoods, slow growth is directly related to lower density. There is no clear correlation between growth rate and density in diffuse hardwoods or in softwoods.

drobertson

Quote from: WDH on December 07, 2017, 03:39:09 PM
Age of the tree has a lot to do with it.  Young, fast grown trees do not last long.  Plantation trees do not last long.  The natural ones with tight rings will hold on much longer.  The slower the growth, the higher proportion of the dense latewood to the less dense earlywood, and the greater proportion of the latewood (the dark bands) contains more pitch which slows down the rot process.
Now, here is an answer, WDH, thanks, not very educated on forestry here, and its hard to say or describe, but this is exactly the way it is, I've  seen stuff growing around ponds that I just hated to saw, fast growth basically no heart, while others were slow growers, very nice, even when standing dead. I believe ring growth is what  tells the story.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

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