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Forest owner needing advice

Started by MonsterMaul91, December 03, 2017, 08:43:10 AM

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MonsterMaul91

New to the forum and my first post. I am the fourth generation owner of a 90 acre woodlot property in NY. The responsible management and long term health of the woodlands on the property is very important to me. My deep attachment to the property began when I was a boy working with my late father in the woods who logged in the summer and on weekends when he wasn't teaching. At 12 yrs old I was skidding logs out with my dad's dozer and taught how to scale a log. That was 35 yrs ago and while I am proficient in the woods and know my way around a chainsaw (used to work for Husqvarna), I am not a logger nor am I as knowledgeable as a trained forester or timber buyer.
A few years ago I hired a local forester to draw up a forest management plan for my property in an effort to take advantage of significant tax breaks offered by the state. The forester has done a good and comprehensive job cataloguing the trees by species and type and I am happy with his work thus far. The property is coming due for its' first harvest in 2018 according to the management plan he laid out and he has introduced me to a logger he says will take good care of my woods (I do not want my property left looking like a war zone). Logger is a one man operation with a small skidder. I should note that my property is generally flat with a few wet spots to cross and no pulls longer than 1/2 mile to the header - most pulls more in the 1/4 mile range. Property has an extensive trail network already in place that will allow access to most trees without building new trails. Property is near main roads and no more than 20 minutes from pulp mill. Logger's yard is 25 minutes from property as well.
I am having trouble understanding the payment/fee structure laid out by the forester/logger and was hoping for some perspective from some of the experienced members of this forum. As a disclaimer, I am not looking to "nickel and dime" the logger here - I know how hard they work and that they have to make a living. Just want to make sure the agreement is fair all the way around. To give an idea of what's on the property:

Soft Maple: 23 MBF
Hard Maple: 2.5 MBF
Red Oak: 33 MBF
Ash: 2.2 MBF
Yellow Birch: 1.5 MBF
Hemlock: 140 cords
Damaged trees marked to come out for firewood: 90 cords
Hardwood tops/firewood: 65 cords

Some of the oak and maple will grade out as veneer - not sure how much.

Proposal is to pay logger $200/MBF as scaled by the log buyer. Also, I am to pay logger $35/cord for all firewood/pulp skidded out to the header. I can either keep the firewood or I can sell firewood to the logger for $15/cord (thereby locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my firewood). Additionally, logger will pay $15/cord for Hemlock pulp (unless it opens up better quality) - also locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my Hemlock.

When my father passed 12 yrs ago, a logger acquaintance of his took advantage of my distraction at the time and screwed me on a different piece of property nearby, so I am more than a little cautious as I prepare to enter into an agreement with another logger. I have the equipment and ability to harvest all the firewood trees/tops myself and am considering that option because this just does not seem like an equitable deal on the firewood/pulp part. Any thoughts or input is much appreciated - thank you.

maple flats

Before you hire that or any logger, go look at 3 of his recent harvests. Talk with the woodlot owners. Did he do what was agreed upon?
I suggest if you are going to cut any trees yourself, even cutting tops from where they fell, go take the "Game of Logging" courses 1 and 2.
When I took it, I had been cutting firewood for about 35 years and believed I knew how. I learned more in those two courses, 1 day each, than I had in my 35 yr.+ experience.
If you have the equipment and time, doing the firewood part yourself is good. While soft maple makes rather low grade firewood, I suggest to process that first, it degrades real fast on the ground, the oak can wait (even for years if need be). The oak will make premium firewood, especially if aged 2 years split and stacked.
Where in NY state are you?
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Corley5

  You're expected to pay him $35.00 a cord to pull the hardwood pulp?  I'd leave it where lays.  We pay around $10.00 per cord for hardwood pulp stumpage.  There's no charging the landowner to extract it and then buying it from them at their loss.  Sounds fishy to me.  I'd shop around to other loggers.  See what other offers are out there.  I'm always suspicious of a forester that has a pet logger and vice verse :-\
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

WDH

Does not sound right to me either. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

maple flats

I believe when a forester has only one logger they recommend, that they don't have your interests at the top of their list. They might be friends, or related or might even be getting kick backs.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

MonsterMaul91

I greatly appreciate the feedback and suggestions. I am in Gansevoort NY (15 minutes north of Saratoga). Will make arrangements to speak to some of the logger's recent landowners and look at their property if possible. May also reach out to a local sawmill I know for suggestions on other loggers I could have bid on the work. I know what firewood goes for in these parts and have split my fair share ( hence my username) - no way I'm letting it go for minus $20/cord. Also appreciate the Game of Logging suggestion - I used to work with some of those guys when I was at Husqvarna but am admittedly "rusty" and think it would be time well spent to go through that training again. Looks like an outfit named ProCuts handles that training here in NY.

John Mc

Quote from: maple flats on December 03, 2017, 04:56:25 PM
I believe when a forester has only one logger they recommend, that they don't have your interests at the top of their list. They might be friends, or related or might even be getting kick backs.

I agree that there is some danger of that sort of thing. Or it could be that your forester recommends him because he's a good fit for your size job, and he knows that he does a good job.  I'm not saying to go with him or not, just to keep in mind that doing a good job often takes more time and effort than doing a poor one.

Personally, before I'd pay someone to haul firewood out of my forest and take it away, I'd haul it out what I and my friends needed myself and leave the rest to rot and return nutrients to the forest floor. But then I enjoy spending some time doing that sort of thing.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Gary_C

Quote from: MonsterMaul91 on December 03, 2017, 08:43:10 AM
Proposal is to pay logger $200/MBF as scaled by the log buyer. Also, I am to pay logger $35/cord for all firewood/pulp skidded out to the header. I can either keep the firewood or I can sell firewood to the logger for $15/cord (thereby locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my firewood). Additionally, logger will pay $15/cord for Hemlock pulp (unless it opens up better quality) - also locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my Hemlock.


That's the most one sided logging proposal I've ever seen. Absolutely no risk for the logger, just cut it up and collect his money.

RUN!   smiley_horserider
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ron Scott

Doesn't sound right to me either. Never heard of such a payment deal.

Have your forester appraise your individual species volumes by products for removal and solicit bids from reliable commercial timber producers in your procurement area. The forester should also manage the harvest on through to completion to insure the desired performance under the terms of a timber harvesting contract . 
~Ron

mike_belben

Whats your seasoned split delivered local firewood market paying? $225/cd or so?
Praise The Lord

Southside

BargeMonkey may be able to give you some input, he is a coupe of hours south of you and moves a lot of firewood.  As far as the finances of that deal, I agree with the others, it is not a good deal at all.  The $200 / MBF makes no sense to me, maybe I am missing something, but where is the incentive for the logger to cut your logs to the best grade?  Just as an example, if you have a ply log 8'6" market that pays $400 / MBF and a tie log buyer that pays $275/MBF in 18' logs why would he make the extra cut just so you can pocket the difference? He makes the same money no matter where the logs go.  I would shop around. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

lopet

Just for comparison, around here it's around $ 125-145 MBF Canadian for cut and skid, yes 200 is a little steep, but then again  I have no idea about the operating costs down your way.
On the other hand $ 35 per cord skidded to the landing, I think isn't all that bad.
I now and then buy hardwood logs trucked in my yard for $ 120 per cord. With doubling my money by processing and delivering I just make enough money to stay in the business. That's all there is.

@ Corley  I quit paying for stumpage or thinning jobs many years ago, but I am still getting standing trees offered to me.
Costs of harvesting have gone up and there is less or sometimes no money in it for the landowner, that's just the way it is. I know, most people don't care about wood rotting on their lots, especially when they live 100 miles away, but there is some who like their woods proper managed and the trails maintained and don't care so much about the revenue.
Although I haven't found a landowner who's paying me to do the work.  ;D   
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Skeans1

This might help, I'm out on the other coast but I'm accredited and would recommend it if the program is anything like what we have for Oregon.
http://www.newyorkloggertraining.org/Home/LoggerSearch

Peter Drouin

Pay off the forester and find your own logger. Just cut what you have to be in line with the tax thing, Go slow the trees are not going nowhere.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

coxy

 peter most of the time they only give you a year to get the logs/firewood cut after being marked under the tax law        I under stand why people go in the tax program but on the other hand  don't under stand why they would let the state have control of there property the state tells you what you can and can not do with it     what every you do don't even think about making a food plot or2 with out calling them and asking permission  ::)  trust me  :-X so they can take that piece of land off and make you pay full tax on it   I would some how find a way to pay the taxes if I had a large piece of land 

bill m

I agree with others that $200/MBF is high for flat ground and a short skid.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Corley5

Quote from: lopet on December 03, 2017, 10:08:06 PM

@ Corley  I quit paying for stumpage or thinning jobs many years ago, but I am still getting standing trees offered to me.


  Cutting hardwood pulp with a chainsaw is a hard way to make $$$$.  There's only one crew that I'm aware of in this country that still does it on a large scale business.  He's got a couple older forwarders along with rough bunch of cutters and short stackers.  Most thinnings on private smaller grounds around here are no more than high grades because it's not feasible to hand cut the pulp or move CTL machines in for small jobs. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

mike_belben

Ill agree with corley.  I cant even accept free pulpwood unless its delivered to my house.  Theres a pile at the end of the road on a clearcut that the owner has been asking me to haul off.

Not until he brings me fuel or the money for it.
Praise The Lord

coxy

I said it in other post I wont work for any less than 200athousand ill go on government assistance first  ;D

nativewolf

Quote from: maple flats on December 03, 2017, 04:56:25 PM
I believe when a forester has only one logger they recommend, that they don't have your interests at the top of their list. They might be friends, or related or might even be getting kick backs.

This.  Heck, I am a forester, but not full time, and I also buy timber and manage woodlots.  We do it all because we want things done that most loggers won't do (get black locust out, etc).  However, I am conflicted and my landowners know it.  I'm bididing against another logger on a client property.  My bid is based on 100% cruise of all the walnut on the property that's spread over 300 acres.  Maybe I mis estimate some of the trees but I am sure I've seen 99% of them.  This logger would not even go look at some of the stands (spread over pastures).  The point being, I don't mind competition because I am sure I am paying the right price and that my prices is better.

So, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck..it's a duck.  You are pushed to a logger who will take care of you..and the contract looks terrible.  You need a new forester and a new logger. 
Liking Walnut

BargeMonkey

 I'm not going to get into the "forester + logger" collusion / relationship discussion, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Normally the trash loggers carry such a reputation that very few foresters will even recommend them, anyone who is decent has YEARS of work lined up and isn't looking for wood, call around, a bad reputation is hard to hide being a logger.
I went out to the table and broke this down just like I would a bid sheet, my #'s may seem low to you but I don't know the quality of the wood or what the ground actually looks like.
23mdft of SM @ 450.00 = 10,350
2.5 mbdft of HM @ 500.00 = 1,250
33 mbdft of RO @ 500.00 = 16,500
2.2 mbdft of WA @ 450 = 990.00
1.5 mbdft of YB @ 300 = 450.00
That's middle of the road #'s, equals 29,540 assuming no over run on footage.
Logger is paid per 200, that equals 12,400. You keep just over 17,000 which is basically 60/40 which isn't bad money. If the logs bring more it's to your benefit. RO is up, SM isn't bad, all depends where your shipping the logs to.
There's 2.4 tons to a cord / 4800lbs for hemlock, last I remembered but I'm sure someone else can remember, @ 15 a cord your 6.50 a ton ? I'm used to paying in tonnage and not working backwards. I've never paid that and never will. 👎 I'm 3-4.00 a ton down here, 100.00 per load or it can stand in the woods, alot of work for 550-650 bucks after trucking.
The way the firewood is proposed they are almost figuring your selling it to the logger, 35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump, if I buy enough or a monster job from the state right now they throw in 2-300 cord extra with some sawlogs as a bonus. 😂 It would have to be beautiful pole wood / processor wood to bring more than that. Anyway, @ 15.00 a cord figuring 125 cord of firewood is 1,875 140 cord of pulp @ 15 is 2100.
The only way I see you losing on this deal is if the logger cuts everything for volume and not grade, be alot of 10.1" logs in the log pile if I was doing it this way.
Questions to ask are, who is cleaning up the header ? Is there any performance bond being put up ? What about damage from trucks in and out ? Stone and fabric ? Where you are at there are alot of qualified guys to choose from, 2-3 guys right here on the FF who have good reputations up your way. At the end of the day if you get a quality job I don't think it's to bad of a deal, especially if the wood is nice and brings better money. How much is the forester making ? 25.00 per mbdft for marking is what I believe I saw on this last job.
There's "almost" enough footage that the mill would bid on that down here, honestly if this job went out to bid down here your not going to get the numbers I spelled out, I bet I would win that job for 8-12,000 because of the quantity of firewood and pulpwood, most guys dont want it. The harsh truth but I see 3-4 bids a month just like this one.

Peter Drouin

Coxy, I did not know how it worked in NY. We have a thing we called current use here for a tax break.
Have to have more than ten A. I do, and I'm not in it, I pay full taxes.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

coxy

we need 50 or more A  in NY they should make it over 200 A because some one has to make up for the lost tax money and its poor slobs like me that only have a few A  >:(

nativewolf

Quote from: BargeMonkey on December 05, 2017, 01:39:37 AM
I'm not going to get into the "forester + logger" collusion / relationship discussion, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Normally the trash loggers carry such a reputation that very few foresters will even recommend them, anyone who is decent has YEARS of work lined up and isn't looking for wood, call around, a bad reputation is hard to hide being a logger.
I went out to the table and broke this down just like I would a bid sheet, my #'s may seem low to you but I don't know the quality of the wood or what the ground actually looks like.
23mdft of SM @ 450.00 = 10,350
2.5 mbdft of HM @ 500.00 = 1,250
33 mbdft of RO @ 500.00 = 16,500
2.2 mbdft of WA @ 450 = 990.00
1.5 mbdft of YB @ 300 = 450.00
That's middle of the road #'s, equals 29,540 assuming no over run on footage.
Logger is paid per 200, that equals 12,400. You keep just over 17,000 which is basically 60/40 which isn't bad money. If the logs bring more it's to your benefit. RO is up, SM isn't bad, all depends where your shipping the logs to.
There's 2.4 tons to a cord / 4800lbs for hemlock, last I remembered but I'm sure someone else can remember, @ 15 a cord your 6.50 a ton ? I'm used to paying in tonnage and not working backwards. I've never paid that and never will. 👎 I'm 3-4.00 a ton down here, 100.00 per load or it can stand in the woods, alot of work for 550-650 bucks after trucking.
The way the firewood is proposed they are almost figuring your selling it to the logger, 35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump, if I buy enough or a monster job from the state right now they throw in 2-300 cord extra with some sawlogs as a bonus. 😂 It would have to be beautiful pole wood / processor wood to bring more than that. Anyway, @ 15.00 a cord figuring 125 cord of firewood is 1,875 140 cord of pulp @ 15 is 2100.
The only way I see you losing on this deal is if the logger cuts everything for volume and not grade, be alot of 10.1" logs in the log pile if I was doing it this way.
Questions to ask are, who is cleaning up the header ? Is there any performance bond being put up ? What about damage from trucks in and out ? Stone and fabric ? Where you are at there are alot of qualified guys to choose from, 2-3 guys right here on the FF who have good reputations up your way. At the end of the day if you get a quality job I don't think it's to bad of a deal, especially if the wood is nice and brings better money. How much is the forester making ? 25.00 per mbdft for marking is what I believe I saw on this last job.
There's "almost" enough footage that the mill would bid on that down here, honestly if this job went out to bid down here your not going to get the numbers I spelled out, I bet I would win that job for 8-12,000 because of the quantity of firewood and pulpwood, most guys dont want it. The harsh truth but I see 3-4 bids a month just like this one.

I agree and that's an excellent post.  What gets me is the contract is written, it seems, to put the risk on the landowner and that's crazy to me.  If the logger is buying the logs he should pay and he should have a performance related obligation so that he cleans up, etc.  Also , several people have written grade vs volume issue.  Overall I can't see why a forester would recommend that contract structure to a landowner.  Why pay to get the firewood cut?  Will no one bid on a firewood sale? Ok, enough from me.

Now answer us this BargeMonkey, what the heck happened to all the salacious posts re the other fine gender.  I mean some of us thought that was the best part of the week when you strung together women and forestry and/or machine work.
Liking Walnut

TKehl

Quote from: MonsterMaul91 on December 03, 2017, 08:43:10 AM
Also, I am to pay logger $35/cord for all firewood/pulp skidded out to the header. I can either keep the firewood or I can sell firewood to the logger for $15/cord (thereby locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my firewood). Additionally, logger will pay $15/cord for Hemlock pulp (unless it opens up better quality) - also locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my Hemlock.

Quote from: BargeMonkey on December 05, 2017, 01:39:37 AM
35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump.

Only thing I can add is to question if there is a misunderstanding of the contract by the OP.

Is it $35/cord to skid firewood and he will purchase at $15 per cord at the header?
Or is it $35/cord to skid firewood or he will purchase at $15 per cord on the stump?

Big difference and would align with Barge's comments.

I don't know Hemlock, but I do like math.   ;)  If Barge were paying $4/ton, that would be $9.60/cord.  $3/ton -> $7.20/cord.  Bigger difference from contract proposal, but again I question "and" versus "or".
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

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