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Author Topic: Forest owner needing advice  (Read 1431 times)

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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 01:39:37 am »
 I'm not going to get into the "forester + logger" collusion / relationship discussion, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Normally the trash loggers carry such a reputation that very few foresters will even recommend them, anyone who is decent has YEARS of work lined up and isn't looking for wood, call around, a bad reputation is hard to hide being a logger.
 I went out to the table and broke this down just like I would a bid sheet, my #'s may seem low to you but I don't know the quality of the wood or what the ground actually looks like.
 23mdft of SM @ 450.00 = 10,350
2.5 mbdft of HM @ 500.00 = 1,250
 33 mbdft of RO @ 500.00 = 16,500
 2.2 mbdft of WA @ 450 = 990.00
 1.5 mbdft of YB @ 300 = 450.00
 That's middle of the road #'s, equals 29,540 assuming no over run on footage.
 Logger is paid per 200, that equals 12,400. You keep just over 17,000 which is basically 60/40 which isn't bad money. If the logs bring more it's to your benefit. RO is up, SM isn't bad, all depends where your shipping the logs to.
 There's 2.4 tons to a cord / 4800lbs for hemlock, last I remembered but I'm sure someone else can remember, @ 15 a cord your 6.50 a ton ? I'm used to paying in tonnage and not working backwards. I've never paid that and never will. 👎 I'm 3-4.00 a ton down here, 100.00 per load or it can stand in the woods, alot of work for 550-650 bucks after trucking.
 The way the firewood is proposed they are almost figuring your selling it to the logger, 35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump, if I buy enough or a monster job from the state right now they throw in 2-300 cord extra with some sawlogs as a bonus. 😂 It would have to be beautiful pole wood / processor wood to bring more than that. Anyway, @ 15.00 a cord figuring 125 cord of firewood is 1,875 140 cord of pulp @ 15 is 2100.
 The only way I see you losing on this deal is if the logger cuts everything for volume and not grade, be alot of 10.1" logs in the log pile if I was doing it this way.
 Questions to ask are, who is cleaning up the header ? Is there any performance bond being put up ? What about damage from trucks in and out ? Stone and fabric ? Where you are at there are alot of qualified guys to choose from, 2-3 guys right here on the FF who have good reputations up your way. At the end of the day if you get a quality job I don't think it's to bad of a deal, especially if the wood is nice and brings better money. How much is the forester making ? 25.00 per mbdft for marking is what I believe I saw on this last job.
 There's "almost" enough footage that the mill would bid on that down here, honestly if this job went out to bid down here your not going to get the numbers I spelled out, I bet I would win that job for 8-12,000 because of the quantity of firewood and pulpwood, most guys dont want it. The harsh truth but I see 3-4 bids a month just like this one.

Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 05:24:22 am »
Coxy, I did not know how it worked in NY. We have a thing we called current use here for a tax break.
Have to have more than ten A. I do, and I'm not in it, I pay full taxes.
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Offline coxy

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 06:46:12 am »
we need 50 or more A  in NY they should make it over 200 A because some one has to make up for the lost tax money and its poor slobs like me that only have a few A  >:(

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 07:00:31 am »
I'm not going to get into the "forester + logger" collusion / relationship discussion, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Normally the trash loggers carry such a reputation that very few foresters will even recommend them, anyone who is decent has YEARS of work lined up and isn't looking for wood, call around, a bad reputation is hard to hide being a logger.
 I went out to the table and broke this down just like I would a bid sheet, my #'s may seem low to you but I don't know the quality of the wood or what the ground actually looks like.
 23mdft of SM @ 450.00 = 10,350
2.5 mbdft of HM @ 500.00 = 1,250
 33 mbdft of RO @ 500.00 = 16,500
 2.2 mbdft of WA @ 450 = 990.00
 1.5 mbdft of YB @ 300 = 450.00
 That's middle of the road #'s, equals 29,540 assuming no over run on footage.
 Logger is paid per 200, that equals 12,400. You keep just over 17,000 which is basically 60/40 which isn't bad money. If the logs bring more it's to your benefit. RO is up, SM isn't bad, all depends where your shipping the logs to.
 There's 2.4 tons to a cord / 4800lbs for hemlock, last I remembered but I'm sure someone else can remember, @ 15 a cord your 6.50 a ton ? I'm used to paying in tonnage and not working backwards. I've never paid that and never will. 👎 I'm 3-4.00 a ton down here, 100.00 per load or it can stand in the woods, alot of work for 550-650 bucks after trucking.
 The way the firewood is proposed they are almost figuring your selling it to the logger, 35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump, if I buy enough or a monster job from the state right now they throw in 2-300 cord extra with some sawlogs as a bonus. 😂 It would have to be beautiful pole wood / processor wood to bring more than that. Anyway, @ 15.00 a cord figuring 125 cord of firewood is 1,875 140 cord of pulp @ 15 is 2100.
 The only way I see you losing on this deal is if the logger cuts everything for volume and not grade, be alot of 10.1" logs in the log pile if I was doing it this way.
 Questions to ask are, who is cleaning up the header ? Is there any performance bond being put up ? What about damage from trucks in and out ? Stone and fabric ? Where you are at there are alot of qualified guys to choose from, 2-3 guys right here on the FF who have good reputations up your way. At the end of the day if you get a quality job I don't think it's to bad of a deal, especially if the wood is nice and brings better money. How much is the forester making ? 25.00 per mbdft for marking is what I believe I saw on this last job.
 There's "almost" enough footage that the mill would bid on that down here, honestly if this job went out to bid down here your not going to get the numbers I spelled out, I bet I would win that job for 8-12,000 because of the quantity of firewood and pulpwood, most guys dont want it. The harsh truth but I see 3-4 bids a month just like this one.

I agree and that's an excellent post.  What gets me is the contract is written, it seems, to put the risk on the landowner and that's crazy to me.  If the logger is buying the logs he should pay and he should have a performance related obligation so that he cleans up, etc.  Also , several people have written grade vs volume issue.  Overall I can't see why a forester would recommend that contract structure to a landowner.  Why pay to get the firewood cut?  Will no one bid on a firewood sale? Ok, enough from me.

Now answer us this BargeMonkey, what the heck happened to all the salacious posts re the other fine gender.  I mean some of us thought that was the best part of the week when you strung together women and forestry and/or machine work.

Offline TKehl

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 08:06:58 am »
Also, I am to pay logger $35/cord for all firewood/pulp skidded out to the header. I can either keep the firewood or I can sell firewood to the logger for $15/cord (thereby locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my firewood). Additionally, logger will pay $15/cord for Hemlock pulp (unless it opens up better quality) - also locking in a $20/cord "loss" on my Hemlock.

35 a cord isn't much to cut and skid but 15 a cord is the going price on the stump.

Only thing I can add is to question if there is a misunderstanding of the contract by the OP.

Is it $35/cord to skid firewood and he will purchase at $15 per cord at the header?
Or is it $35/cord to skid firewood or he will purchase at $15 per cord on the stump?

Big difference and would align with Barge's comments.

I don't know Hemlock, but I do like math.   ;)  If Barge were paying $4/ton, that would be $9.60/cord.  $3/ton -> $7.20/cord.  Bigger difference from contract proposal, but again I question "and" versus "or".
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 08:10:54 am »
Now answer us this BargeMonkey, what the heck happened to all the salacious posts re the other fine gender.  I mean some of us thought that was the best part of the week when you strung together women and forestry and/or machine work.

:D :D X2

Offline MonsterMaul91

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 06:00:49 pm »
Update: Met with forester today and clarified a few points. He knows his trees, but did not communicate the terms of the contract to me clearly either verbally or in writing when I asked him about some of these same items a few weeks ago. Wording in his contract reads like I pay $35/cord for felling/skidding of firewood or pulp no matter what. After asking several questions and clarifying, the intent is that I only pay that fee if I opt to keep the firewood - I have no problem with that. If I sell firewood to logger, I get $15/cord and no skid fee. Hemlock is minimum of $15/cord paid to me or possibly more if it is lumber quality - no felling/skid fee. Also asked about what the incentive was to cut better quality logs if paying $200/MBF across the board. Again, language is contract was vague and apparently the timber buyer will be the one marking the higher quality logs, not the logger. I am going to rework the language in the contract to make sure all of these points are clearly defined before I sign it. Again, I greatly appreciate everyone’s suggestions and guidance on this.

Online John Mc

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 06:55:44 pm »
I'd be a bit concerned to just turn the buyer loose to mark what he wants, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you said. Is your forester not marking the job?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline MonsterMaul91

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 07:19:41 pm »
Forester already tagged all the trees to come out. Said he would have the timber buyer mark them out on the header to achieve highest grade/length logs

Online John Mc

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 07:33:26 pm »
Forester already tagged all the trees to come out. Said he would have the timber buyer mark them out on the header to achieve highest grade/length logs

OK, now I understand.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2017, 09:08:10 pm »
Update: Met with forester today and clarified a few points. He knows his trees, but did not communicate the terms of the contract to me clearly either verbally or in writing when I asked him about some of these same items a few weeks ago. Wording in his contract reads like I pay $35/cord for felling/skidding of firewood or pulp no matter what. After asking several questions and clarifying, the intent is that I only pay that fee if I opt to keep the firewood - I have no problem with that. If I sell firewood to logger, I get $15/cord and no skid fee. Hemlock is minimum of $15/cord paid to me or possibly more if it is lumber quality - no felling/skid fee. Also asked about what the incentive was to cut better quality logs if paying $200/MBF across the board. Again, language is contract was vague and apparently the timber buyer will be the one marking the higher quality logs, not the logger. I am going to rework the language in the contract to make sure all of these points are clearly defined before I sign it. Again, I greatly appreciate everyone’s suggestions and guidance on this.

Ahh much better.  Good.

Offline jwilly3879

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Re: Forest owner needing advice
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2017, 06:09:34 pm »
Sent you a PM about a local log buyer.