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New Toy (Tool)

Started by YellowHammer, November 22, 2017, 09:48:09 PM

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YellowHammer

Unfortunately, I haven't actually seen one of the sock feeders Tule Peak has, but I've been very interested in them.
I'm not sure how gentle the finger contact would and how much downpressure it imparts, if it would flex down an 8 foot board, 4/4 board. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Larry

I think your being too critical about bow.  Not many projects even use a 8' long board.

A little bow in a 4/4 board shouldn't mean much to most woodworkers.  When I look around I see most desks and tables have aprons.  Cabinets and shelving units have face frames.  Moulding gets nailed to wavy walls.  All are methods to pull bow out during assembly. 

Than there are glue up techniques that can straighten a panel.

Of course rails, stiles, panels, and drawer fronts need to be perfectly flat.  That's why we closely scrutinize the raw boards as to where they go in a project.

Cup is the scourge, followed closely by twist.  Those defects have to be corrected before use.  Bow in anything thicker than 4/4 also becomes a larger problem but its easier to correct.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

YellowHammer

I agree, but our customers don't, and it's been a painful lesson for us over the years.  We had to do a bit of soul searching for this investment, but in the end, we figured we had no real alternative.  We sell high grade boards, we charge a fair price, and our customers pay it.  However, it's difficult to convince somebody who is paying $30 to $50 dollars per board to buy a bowed one if there is a stack of dead straight boards next to it on the rack.

Just yesterday, we a had decent sale$ to a customer who was standing in line to check out say to a buch of other customers that he got what he wanted and didn't have to buy a single crooked board, and then he thanked us for our high level of quality.  Made us feel good.  Unfortunately, what we have learned is that if we have a stack of straight boards on the rack, and a few bowed ones, then most customers will almost always push the bowed boards to the side and grab the flat one.  Only as a last resort will they purchase a bowed or otherwise defective board.  By the end of the day, all we have on the racks are stacks of mostly bowed or otherwise not great, boards, as the customers have essentially cherry picked.  I can't blame the customers, all things being equal, straighter is better.  Back a few years ago, we would half the board, or quarter it, to reduce the bow, but again customers would still select straight vs defective.  So we would have to deeply discount the bowed boards and try to sell them, but that was problematic and hurt our bottom line.   That's also when we learned what everyone says, that a single sided planer will not flatten a board. ::), no matter how much we tried, at least with any production speed, anyway.  So we invested in the "smaller 12" jointer, began to cut them in half and face them, or try to clean them up full length, or whatever.  More than once, I'd take a full length bowed board, or one with a single knot in it that has been the rack for a couple sale days, cut the knot out, or half the board, straighten it out on the jointer, and it would shortly sell at full price.

We used to have a hardwood store about 40 miles from us that would not let customers pick, and if they did, would charge them extra.  They eventually went out of business.  While they were open, I could usually tell when one of those customers was inbound by the way they were driving, mad as a hornet, and throwing up a cloud of gravel dust.  Also invariably, their first question was, "will you let me pick out my own **!!!** boards?!  So all I had to say was "Sure, why not, they're all fine," and instant new customer.

As you mention, the other reason for this jointer is to flatten our thicker slabs with less effort.  Very few customers will pay $300 for a bowed, cupped or twisted slab.  Our planer does OK but this SCMi machine will flatten a slab to "cast iron" perfect.  Amazing what it will do.  I used to have to do it on the sawmill after it was dried, no more, thankfully. 

Due to their new machine, the word has spread, and we are now are having customers start showing to face and joint their boards for them, some bought other places.  Many have only a table saw to straighten an edge, some the usual 6" or 4" jointers and are struggling with them.  50 cents per bdft for me to face and plane their boards, 50 cents per bdft to joint their boards, and not only are they happy, but they generally become a new customer. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ed_K

 YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Ed K

WDH

Bow in boards is a killer.  My customers will not buy bowed boards, either.  The jointer is invaluable, and like Robert says, you can cut a bowed board in half, face joint it flat, plane it flat, and sell it at full price.  I am referring to boards only 3' to 4' long.  They sell if they are flat.  If not, they don't sell and I am constantly handling them. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Don P

Is it worth gluing them into panels, alternate bow then face joint/plane

YellowHammer

Quote from: Ed_K on December 10, 2017, 04:55:36 PM
YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that when straightening pallet quantities of kiln dried, slightly bowed, cupped or curved slabs where the band does more skimming and light cutting than full kerf cutting, the tooth set will be removed from the bottom side of the band after several cuts, maybe a dozen slabs or so depending on species, although everything appears to be fine.  So while the band is still sharp, burying the band in the cut, full kerf, is not a problem and for the first dozen or so clean up cuts everything goes very well.  Skim it, cut it, slice it, no problem, flat as a pancake.

However, after top skimming a bunch of slabs, if the band ever needs to dig in full kerf, full width, disaster! The band will dip down, and dive into the cut like a porpoise on the bow wave of the Calypso and ruin the slab.  Basically, the band will behave like a band that is not only dull and has also lost its set on only one side, which is exactly what has happened.  Ouch!!

The solution is to change the band out more often, which I only seems to do after I've had a massive dive.

I wish I had never sold my LT15, because if I hadn't there would be an MP100 planer sitting on it.  I think that would be perfect. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

YellowHammer

Quote from: Don P on December 10, 2017, 08:15:52 PM
Is it worth gluing them into panels, alternate bow then face joint/plane
I don't know, haven't tried that.  Some people might buy the ready made panels. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

PA_Walnut

If WM makes an MP200 (for LT15 wide), I'll order one today!  8)
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Peter Drouin

In a way YH I do the same here, I don't sell shorter than 8'. I cut and stick right off the mill. When a customer comes to get lumber They will not buy bowed lumber. I cull it when we go through the stack. If I can run it through the edger and fix it I will. Sometimes a board might have a split in it.
I give it to the customer for free. They can get a 2 to 4' piece out of it.
They love that, saves me from chipping it.  :D :D
So If it's a $50 piece or a $10 piece it has to be straight. :D :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 11, 2017, 09:47:41 PM
So If it's a $50 piece or a $10 piece it has to be straight. :D :D ;)
Yep. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

customsawyer

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 10, 2017, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Ed_K on December 10, 2017, 04:55:36 PM
YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that when straightening pallet quantities of kiln dried, slightly bowed, cupped or curved slabs where the band does more skimming and light cutting than full kerf cutting, the tooth set will be removed from the bottom side of the band after several cuts, maybe a dozen slabs or so depending on species, although everything appears to be fine.  So while the band is still sharp, burying the band in the cut, full kerf, is not a problem and for the first dozen or so clean up cuts everything goes very well.  Skim it, cut it, slice it, no problem, flat as a pancake.

However, after top skimming a bunch of slabs, if the band ever needs to dig in full kerf, full width, disaster! The band will dip down, and dive into the cut like a porpoise on the bow wave of the Calypso and ruin the slab.  Basically, the band will behave like a band that is not only dull and has also lost its set on only one side, which is exactly what has happened.  Ouch!!

The solution is to change the band out more often, which I only seems to do after I've had a massive dive.

I wish I had never sold my LT15, because if I hadn't there would be an MP100 planer sitting on it.  I think that would be perfect. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you are taking the set out of the bottom teeth of the blade than it should climb in the next full cut. Since it would be taking more kerf above the blade then below it. Just my logic.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

Jake, I see your point, but all I know is the band dives badly once it's submerged and even has that joyful little extra bonus cup in the center of the boards to take even a little extra out.  My 2 3/8" thick piece of wood turns into 1 3/4" in a hurry with a little smoke in the kerf to boot because it's pulling down so hard.

I wish it would rise in the cut and not butcher my stuff.  That would be ideal.   

The mill cuts fine with green wood, or at the beginning of a slab trimming session.  Thing is, something is damaging the band because last time I tried, I attempted to finish the session just edging some of the live edge slabs, and even then, with very narrow edge cuts, it was up and down to the point I had to clean them up on the track saw.

Good thing is, I don't have to do it anymore, I may leave this one up to the pros.   8)

I've got a load of hard maple slabs coming out of the kiln in a couple weeks, I may run a few skims and take some photos when she goes under, and see what you guys think. 

It's got me curious, has nobody else seen this behavior when Slab Skimmin more than a dozen or so? It's happened to me repeatedly. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Don P

its just like a chain, or circle blade, the sharp side cuts faster so it starts an ever tightening arc as it "beats" the dull side. All of a sudden you're spiraling the drain. I got that little cup 1" deep with the slabbing bar last week before I just couldn't use brute force and ignorance any more   :D. I've done it with the lucas skimming too.

As a laterally unsupported beam (your blade) fails, the compression edge buckles sideways, out of plane, that is the cup. The race between cutting sides determines which way the beam buckles.

WDH

I have not had a big problem with it.  But, I never do more that 8 or ten at a time.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

customsawyer

I've never done very many either, so I have never experienced what Robert is. What Don P is saying makes some since.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Jemclimber

Has anyone ever used a carbide tipped blade on a sawmill to use exclusively for jointing? I don't do production work, but I would really like to joint wide boards occasionally. I have a 20" planer, but haven't had great luck with a large sled.  I've done it with hand planes and with a router sled, but it sure is time consuming and makes lots of chips, shavings, and dust.  For the little amount that I do, a carbide blade used exclusively for jointing on my mill is much cheaper than a 20" jointer and takes up much less space.
lt15

customsawyer

How is the new toy doing now that you have a little time on it?
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

Better than I had hoped.  I still hate the guard.  I've run several thousand bdft through it. 

Here's some walnut a couple days ago.  This is one reason I got it.  These boards were twitchy with a lot, too much, sapwood which really pulls the boards, and since they were high value, I knew through experience if I ran them through a conventional two sided, I would have about a 30% sapwood bow rate, and would mean cutting that many boards in half to flatten enough to sell.  So I had a little extra time on my hands and ran every one of these 8 footers through the jointer.  I was able to flatten them all out except two, which I had to cut in half.  A huge increase is quality.   


I decided to shallow up the cut for a few boards to get a feel for the board wave and actually see where the machine was taking off.  That's what these boards show, exactly where they were being faced, and how flat they were coming out.  This is after a shallow first pass and you can see the dips and dives that were being shaved.  Of course, most times, I set it for a single deep 3/16 pass, but I was just playing and learning.  This was an unusually high movement stack of walnut, due to the sapwood, and most times it's much flatter than this out of the kiln.  However, this was one reason I bought this machine, to turn poop into gold, and when I got done with it, these guys were as flat as a pancake. 



Of course the main reason I bought it was for slab flattening, and for this it just excels.






YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

It is a hassle for sure, but it gives me great pleasure and makes me proud to offer boards that are 15/16" to a minimum of 7/8" thick, planed, and flat.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

customsawyer

Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

PA_Walnut

Yellow,

Being that it's a lot of manual labor to push a pile like that through, are you considering a power feeder for the jointing ops? Also, I'm curious what the difference in the retail value and sales timeline is once you flatten/plane them vs leaving them as-is?

I appreciate your business model in catering to the retail buyer and struggle to find better ways myself!! smiley_clapping

I don't know of any retailers locally doing it, saving WoodCraft, and they usually only have a VERY small amount at a VERY high ticket.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

You are right, this took a few hours and its not something I want to do too often, and would have only considered doing with a high value wood.  The interesting thing abiout this machine is that with the cutter head and the grooved bed, the pushing effort is only a fraction of what it took me with my other jointer.  So instead of feeling like I had been run over by a truck, I wasn't even tired, and felt good enough to play around with it awhile.  My other jointer was the most hated tool in my shop, lots of effort but required because it was the only way get the quality I wanted.  Hated it, but had to use it.  This thing is a whole different class, easy to use and does a much better job.  I wouldn't have believed it was that much better than my old one.

Yes I am definitely considering a power feed, but since I installed a Powermatic on my old machine, I at least got to see the issues with one.  I'm shopping around, but the Comatic dedicated jointer feeder with metal feeder fingers seems to be the best choice.  However, I have seen the limitations of a conventional rubber tire power feeder on a jointer, so I'm not convinced if I install it, I can still get the high quality flat lumber with the habitually troublesome boards.

Everything must have a business balance, i.e. is it worth it?  Hand flattening a thousand bdft of walnut took several hours, and there is a cost and effort associated with that.  Its not something I would do routinely, but I'm still learning this machine and it was cold outside, so why not?  On the other hand, it would have taken me just slightly less time to have to go through already planed, but bowed, lumber and flatten and dress the bad actors.  Especially since our normal initial skip planing process removes a lot of meat that I can used to joint off and still have thick boards.  So I'm still working thorough the $$ and cents, but as to your question of turn around, specifically, this pack of lumber came out of the kiln, was jointed Wednesday, straight lined Thursday, trimmed and about half of it sold yesterday.  Thats a couple day processing turnaround of $2,800 gross.  Straight and long sells.  Bowed doesn't.

Our normal process is takes about two weeks when wood comes out of a kiln, includes unsticking, banding, trucking to our outsource planer, leaving for a week, trucking back and then straightening.       
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

customsawyer

So are you sawing it 4/4 and still getting 7/8" boards? After you flatten one side do you run the other side through a planer so you get a consistent thickness?
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

WDH

When I cut a board in half because of bow, as in cutting a 10' board into two 5' pieces, I flatten one side on the jointer.  This sometimes takes two passes on the jointer,  Then, the board is run through the planer to plane the other side.  The majority of them still plane out to 15/16", but a portion have to be taken down to 7/8" thick.  This is on stock that was sawed green a 1 1/8" thick then kiln dried, so there is some shrinkage in thickness from the kiln drying. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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