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A customer

Started by Peter Drouin, November 20, 2017, 08:32:46 PM

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Peter Drouin

Ordered
6, 10"x10"x12'
6. 8"x10x12' hemlock beams.
I did not have time to cut them that day. So I was up the next day and out at sunrise, 20°
Get the Cat going and cut, Called him, told him the beams are ready.
He shows up and wants to talk about the price.  ::) taz-smiley

He found the BAD Pete that day. And left with nothing.
That was only the #2 customer this year that wanted to talk price.
I think not bad, What say you. :snowball:
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

thecfarm

When we had the veggie business here,customers, ::) would complain about the price. I would ask them,you want to spend an hour picking 3 pounds of beans and get paid $9?? That is not even counting the cost of seeds. Nor the fertilizer to grow them.That is also not counting my time to weed either. I think about $10 a pound should do it.
I could say that because it was my business. Now I work at a hardware I can't be quite so truthful.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Dave Shepard

The last time someone wanted to talk price I told them to go out in the woods, find a log,  and chew it square with their bare teeth.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Crossroads

I agree, that would be a choice of 2, take it or leave it! Especially if there was an agreement in advance.
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

4x4American

Quote from: Dave Shepard on November 20, 2017, 08:45:23 PM
The last time someone wanted to talk price I told them to go out in the woods, find a log,  and chew it square with their bare teeth.


:D :D :D


I think I might have to borrow that line from you...don't worry, I'll give it back when I'm done.
Boy, back in my day..

OffGrid973

"Chew it " lol...definite shirt being made
Your Fellow Woodworker,
- Off Grid

Peter Drouin

With your bare teeth.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Good one,
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

We would not have had anything to talk about anyway......20 degrees?...... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 20, 2017, 09:06:32 PM
We would not have had anything to talk about anyway......20 degrees?...... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


The sun was out, a nice day. ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 20, 2017, 09:11:25 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 20, 2017, 09:06:32 PM
We would not have had anything to talk about anyway......20 degrees?...... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


The sun was out, a nice day. ;)

I bet it got pretty hot pretty fast!
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

Yes, it did. It was only .95 a bf, cheap.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Magicman

I don't sell but I guess that the question here is whether a price is quoted when the order is placed?  I know that I always quote my sawing and travel/setup rates when a customer calls.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Magicman

Then that customer deserved to be booted.  Good on you.   :snowball:
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

There are times when a customer will be nice and poke a little to see if I will move on the price. Don't you get sometimes a customer say, If you come down just a little I will give you more work?
I have had loggers say If you come up with the price just a little they will bring just what I want for logs.
I tell them no.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: YellowHammer on November 20, 2017, 09:15:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 20, 2017, 09:11:25 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 20, 2017, 09:06:32 PM
We would not have had anything to talk about anyway......20 degrees?...... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


The sun was out, a nice day. ;)

I bet it got pretty hot pretty fast!

Nice Tan Peter.  :D :D :D   smiley_sun smiley_furious3 smiley_argue01
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

Thanks, goat man. I do have a nice one. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Darrel

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 20, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
Don't you get sometimes a customer say, If you come down just a little I will give you more work?

I had a lady say that to me once and I asked her why in the world she thought I would want to do more work for less pay when I had all the work I wanted at my current rate. That got her tail all in a knot and she started yelling telling me that I had just worked for free and drove off.  If I'd had a chance I would have told her that she had just given me her logs, but she was already gone.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Chop Shop

Custom sawing requires a 50% deposit.

I have a favorite saying,

Good, Fast, Cheap, pick TWO.

PAmizerman

I've had people come buy lumber from me and rant and rave how nice it is. About an hour later my phone rings and all the sudden they found all these problems with it and want me to replace it. Or give them their money back. I tell them no problem. My return policy is an even exchange. Now all of the sudden they don't have time. or my favorite, "it would cost me more in fuel than it's worth" but they would come back for free lumber. Go figure. I'm just glad the good customers far outweigh the bad.
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

Percy

If he would have talked price before you cut the beams, the dialog could have at least continued until an agreement of sorts....heh...was reached. Regardless, I would have loved to see the "Bad Peter" in action. ;D ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

YellowHammer

Some customers are just built that way, no class.  I had a guy just last week contact me and want me to saw up his two logs for free!  He said since he got them for free from his neighbor, why should HE have to pay to get them sawn up?? Then they wouldn't be free anymore! Especially since it was only two and it wouldn't take me very long!  I'm still thinking about that one, I never saw him face to face ....he must have been a piece of work. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

barbender

YH, you can't really call that a customer😊
Too many irons in the fire

Brucer

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 20, 2017, 08:32:46 PM
... He shows up and wants to talk about the price.  ...

"Well,  even though I did get up awfully early, and it was awfully cold I wasn't planning to charge you extra. But now that you mention it ...."

;D
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Bruno of NH

Good for you Peter
I tell them I'm not an auctionier :)
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

PA_Walnut

Thought he had you over a barrel since it was custom work. It would have been fun to bust out your chainsaw and start sawing them into firewood sizes.

A little haggling before the deal is prudent (heck, I do sometimes) but afterwards is against the Ethics Code Book of Manliness.

There's always exceptions. I've given stuff away, done things for free (even lost money), but it was for the good of the whole. Kinda just "business" I suppose.

I recently bought six logs from a tree dude. One turned out exceptionally nice when sawing it,  and I'll do well on selling the material, so I voluntarily gave him $1 more/BF next time I saw him. Looked shocked!  :o Surely, he'll remember that in the future. Great fair and honest transactions both ways, fuel long-lasting relationships.

Surely, none of us have time for the gangsters amongst the ranks. Good job Peter!
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

Quote from: Bruno of NH on November 21, 2017, 05:03:02 AM
Good for you Peter
I tell them I'm not an auctionier :)
I'm going to use this line.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

Some are going to be 2x8x12 and 2x4s. My Wood Mizer don't care, it will cut whatever I put on the deck. ;D


Me too YellowHammer, :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

longtime lurker

S'why I don't have a website and my number (business) isn't in the book. I lose some margin but the headaches of retail business are someone else's.  Works for me.



The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Darrel

Quote from: YellowHammer on November 21, 2017, 06:05:02 AM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on November 21, 2017, 05:03:02 AM
Good for you Peter
I tell them I'm not an auctionier :)
I'm going to use this line.

I'll tell them that I am an auctioneer; the price only goes up!
:D :D :D
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

KirkD

I have not cut for anyone else yet but I think that guy would have left with some fiber added to his diet. :D
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

WV Sawmiller

  I think I am with most others here - if you had discussed price before cutting there was nothing to discuss other than to verify the order was cut as specified.

   I have posted this before but once when I was in USMC and changing duty stations I had some leftover firewood I offered for sale. A guy called and we discussed price including delivery. I loaded up with my young son along and drove over, backed up, dropped the tailgate and started to unload and the guy came out and immediately told me it was good looking wood and he'd pay $15 or $20 less than I'd quoted. I raised the tailgate and told my son to get in. The guy started raising his offer till he reached our original quote and I told him he did not have enough money to buy that load of firewood. I stopped on the way home and gave it to a friend and I still say that was the most valuable load of wood I ever sold.

YH,

   I'd have just told that customer of yours to load up and go back to Tuscaloosa or he'd be late for the game. :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Percy on November 20, 2017, 11:06:38 PM
Regardless, I would have loved to see the "Bad Peter" in action. ;D ;D

Just type in "Bad Peter" in the search box.  :D :D :D :D :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

YellowHammer

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 21, 2017, 12:40:15 PM
YH,
   I'd have just told that customer of yours to load up and go back to Tuscaloosa or he'd be late for the game. :D
He was from Auburn, I figured I'd cut him some slack because he couldn't count past zero anyway.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

irvi00

Had one growl at me yesterday about my "20 bucks per blade if I hit metal" policy. I even metal detect butt cuts and estimate how many blades Im going to lose.

dgdrls

First time customer??

If so, I think a 50% deposit is prudent just for this reason.

Clear on price, you have leverage, 

good on you to send them packing,

D


Percy

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 21, 2017, 12:49:29 PM
Quote from: Percy on November 20, 2017, 11:06:38 PM
Regardless, I would have loved to see the "Bad Peter" in action. ;D ;D

Just type in "Bad Peter" in the search box.  :D :D :D :D :D
haha. I'll pass. Don't wanna get another warning 😳😳
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Peter Drouin

I don't get money up front unless it get's past $4 or $5000.00
I have an order for $2500. 00 out there now. A guy will come tomorrow to get it.
No money up front.
But, all lumber it paid for before leaving.
The other thing, I don't take money ahead of time.
Like a customer wants 50 2x4s but. His truck will only take 25. Now he wants to pay for all of it. Not here, Pay what you take. When you come back pay for what you take.
Easier for my small brain to keep up. :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

IF I have NEVER done business with you before and you order over $100 worth of lumber,
you will pay 50% up front OR leave me a trailer.

I've never had a complaint.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

But I have the lumber. If the guy don't come or want to pay I'l sell it to someone else.
You have to remember I have  thousands $$$ in logs and lumber out there.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 21, 2017, 06:28:09 PM
But I have the lumber. If the guy don't come or want to pay I'l sell it to someone else.
You have to remember I have  thousands $$$ in logs and lumber out there.


.........and I got a trailer.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

goose63

 

 

It's empty now if you need a bigger one David
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

starmac

How do you tie those down well enough to suit the dot??

Any business with the publics has their share of up and down customers, some are bad enough to tell to get on down the road, some become lifelong friends.
I had a shop on I 40 for years, met every kind of person imaginable through it. lol
I did 24 hour wrecker and heavy truck service, passenger vehicles were shop hours only.
One night a guy called and wanted to know if I had an alternator for his diesel pusher motor home and would I come install it. I told him to wait till I opened in the morning as he was at the truckstop, not stranded on the road, but he insisted on NOW. I went and started but every ten minutes or less he would ask what this was going to cost him, I have given him the price of the callout, the part and the hourly rate. He kept asking what the total was going to be, and remarking he was afraid of getting the shaft. Now this clown back then was driving a 1/4 million dollar motorhome on his way to antelope hunt in Wyoming, and afraid I was going to make a dime off of him, when he knew my hourly rate and was standing right there. I got his off, and cleaned up my tools and started putting them up. He ask what I was doing, and I told him, you don't owe me a dime, but I'm tired of listening you, so am going back to bed, get someone else to fix your rig. I did advise him that if he was that broke to sell that rig and sit on the porch the rest of his days.  He talked me into finishing up, claiming he would not say another word. When I give him the bill, he paid and gave me a 400 dollar tip, I guess he just liked to complain. lol
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

longtime lurker

Now that's the good side of the retail side of the business - cash flows. You guys get regular payments on an "as completed" basis.

Instead of customer headaches I have overdraft ones. Most months I have more receivables then payables but the payables fall due before I get mine, and it can get pretty lean towards the end of the month. Standard terms of 30 days from end of month can mean the logs I buy today turn into cash in my account end of January, and the bills to make it all happen don't wait that long that's for sure.

Guess the other guy's grass is always greener.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

longtime lurker

Quote from: goose63 on November 21, 2017, 08:12:25 PM


 

It's empty now if you need a bigger one David

I'll lend you mine if he borrows yours Goose.



 
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

PA_Walnut

Yes indeed! Asking for progress payments on large projects is very acceptable. I do it all the time, especially when there's an out-of-pocket for me. It's sharing the commitment.

I'm assuming that when people trust in me to do their work, they'd also trust me with some financial commitment. Otherwise, no skin in the game=an easy walk.

Only ever been stiffed ONCE. (in my other business). Dude actually was surprised that he got charged...supposing I did it for fun, I assume. I didn't even bother with him, wrote it off, sent him an invoice with "CHARGED OFF ACCOUNT/BAD DEBT" at the top and then sent him a 1099C come tax time. Not surprisingly, I read his name in the paper under the police reports for getting into a drunken fight at someone's home.  smiley_bat_morph

Got no time for negative-energy clowns. Ain't nobody got no time for 'dat.


Quote from: longtime lurker on November 21, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
Now that's the good side of the retail side of the business - cash flows. You guys get regular payments on an "as completed" basis.

Instead of customer headaches I have overdraft ones. Most months I have more receivables then payables but the payables fall due before I get mine, and it can get pretty lean towards the end of the month. Standard terms of 30 days from end of month can mean the logs I buy today turn into cash in my account end of January, and the bills to make it all happen don't wait that long that's for sure.

Guess the other guy's grass is always greener.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Chuck White

I had a customer pull the "price negotiation thing" after the sawing was done, a couple years ago!

I approached him for my pay and he said I was charging too much and if I cut my price in half he'd pay me now, so I walked away to do some thinking!

He had cull logs hauled in, then I sawed them to his specifications.  The order was a little over 12,000 bf, so the bill was substantial and I couldn't just let it go!

I talked to the hauler and he said he was having trouble getting paid too!

Well, long story short, about 6 weeks later I finally got paid!

I told the guy that the next time (if there is one) he will pay some of the sawbill in advance, and when I reach that "bf & dollar" amount, I stop sawing until I get some more money!

End of discussion!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

PA_Walnut

Wow! Gangsta!  :o

My first experience with a mill was an old-timer, sawing not-so-great stuff with his LT40 on his 50 acre plot of woods.

Told me that he had sawed for an Amish dude who brought logs to him on his horse-drawn wagon. Came to pick up the lumber, loaded it onto the wagon and started to drive off. Sawyer asked, "Hey, what about getting paid?" Amishman rebutted, "I'm out of money. Sorry." and kept rolling  :-X Apparently showed-up MONTHS later, squared-up on the bill and promptly kept moving. I suppose he gets a zero in communication, but a 10 in honesty...I think.  ???

I have some clients that I will do anything for and not even ask/discuss and know we'll be good. Others require a signed document. I used to assume good in everyone. I guess a lesson to be learned here, is to outline ALL of one's terms PRIOR to committing to the job: pay rate, delivery timeline, terms of payment, etc.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Brad_bb

Quote from: PA_Walnut on November 22, 2017, 06:44:04 AM
I guess a lesson to be learned here, is to outline ALL of one's terms PRIOR to committing to the job: pay rate, delivery timeline, terms of payment, etc.

That's the bottom line.  Sometimes we have to blame ourselves if we fail to do that completely.  I've done that to myself before.  I didn't make clear all the details, and while I thought something was implicit, the other person could say that "you didn't say that- I thought this".  Then you're trapped and end up losing because you did fail to outline some part of the deal.  I hate that because I end up screwing the honest person (me).
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

goose63

Quote from: longtime lurker on November 21, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: goose63 on November 21, 2017, 08:12:25 PM


 

It's empty now if you need a bigger one David

I'll lend you mine if he borrows yours Goose.



 

Long time just bring the logs for now would ya
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

Crusarius

One of the last customers I was going to build a back rack for his dodge truck caused me to completely change everything. he committed, we worked out a price, so I ordered the materials. Finally got the materials to my shop and called the guy. He was unreachable. so I left a few messages. Now this guy was also a volunteer in the same fire department I volunteer in so I figured all was well. When I finally saw him next time he had a shiny new rack on his truck and never said anything to me or called me back. So I went over and had a nice chat with him. I was kinda heated as you may imagine. So I said you owe me for materials. I doubled the price of materials, got paid, and never looked back.

Moral of the story is any job I do friend or otherwise I get either cost of materials up front or 50%. depends on my feelings towards the customer.

GDinMaine

I guess I have been lucky not to have been burned in the past five years.

I had a guy asking if I would saw his logs and he would pay me when he has money a "few weeks later."  I was polite but very firm about not doing that. He said he will call when he has money. This happened four months ago and no follow-up from him. My guess is I would still be waiting for payment had I agreed to do the work.
It's the going that counts not the distance!

WM LT-40HD-D42

WV Sawmiller

   I have no problem accepting early partial or complete payments and if someone new to me I expect a deposit. I tell them if they want to leave their trailer for me to load their lumber on as I cut it I can accept that as their deposit.  As long as they have some skin in the game less likely to try to stiff you or try to renegotiate the price. I had one customer after 2-3 days cutting went to pay me and only had about half and said he'd pay the rest next week when his check came. He did promptly pay the rest as promised but I'd certainly have appreciated and expected him to tell me he was going to be short.

    I once cut for several weeks at a job 45 miles away. No help and I had to stack everything, which we agreed up front and charged extra for it, but I was worried after that long but he paid immediately when I completed the order. I won't wait that long again and will required weekly or at completion, whichever comes first. I had a guy a month ago offer to pay me at end of each day. Was only 2-3 day job and I said just pay at end. I should have taken the daily offer. I under charged him a couple hundred dollars and was ready to write it off as he'd paid what I told him at end of the job but I sent him a copy of his invoice (I can't print on site yet) and mentioned my error and when he opened his mail and saw it he sent me the rest and said he wanted me back in the future so all worked out fine.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

terrifictimbersllc

I use a hp-100 mobile printer, bluetooths to my laptop, to print on site. Sometimes it does the hp instinctive behavior of begging for ink but not lately. I never had custom invoices to write up manually sometimes think it would be good but this way I don't have math errors or forget sales tax.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

WV Sawmiller

TT,

   I have looked in passing at the portable printers and expect I'll pull the trigger on one before too much longer. I have an excel spreadsheet that does a good job of tallying my lumber cut and does the math for my sawing, blades, mobilization and taxes. I just need to be sure when I add new lines for lumber to make sure the formula copies over for the tally and multiplication.

   I have a little Neat scanner that scans 1-2 pages and is powered off my laptop that works great for capturing expenses. I am real diligent about recording my expenses and sales and back them up with scanned copies. Then on 31 December I can just do a final sort and tally by category and send it to my tax accountant to prepare my taxes.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

longtime lurker

Our invoice system is Excel based too and seems capable so long as I stay away from it... im a double clicking, formula overwriting, impatient disaster.

But mostly in this day of smart phones you don't need a printer... just kick bluetooth from laptop to phone and email it ro the customer and your own office at the same time.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Crossroads

I've often thought that if a customer who starts backpedaling after the wood is cut(mobile jobs), I could get out the chainsaw, explain that when I cut for trade it's 50/50 and ask which half they want. The right half or the left! I don't have much use for a pickup load of 4-6' boards, but I would have have to guess they don't either.
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

longtime lurker

And so today... right on topic

One of my retail guys rings up and says cancel the other half of that order, we'll take what you've got cut but no more. (His customer has had a weather related change of plan)
That happens but on this one I had told him (unusual for me) that I really would have felt happier with a deposit. Wasn't a customer issue but I wanted cash to put a whack of logs in the yard for the job.

No harm no foul and its not like I'm left with unpaid for timber or stiffed or arguing about the price... but I turned other jobs away to get this one out the door on time and now I got a budgetary headache. I was going to put the second cheque from this job to buying logs for the wet season (first cheque went to expenses doing it) which is all but upon us... now I got to figure how to do that with like no time left.

Thats two serious jobs in three months that I've thought I had and then they evaporated at the last minute. Either one of them would have been enough to let me breathe a little easier for the coming seasonal lull... both would have seen me running free and clear for the first time since I bought myself a sawmill: obviously I'm supposed to endure a little bit more suffering first.

Sometimes I really do envy the weekend/part time sawyers who dont have to sell wood to eat. When I retire I think I'll get me a nice little mill and try that. :D :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Peter Drouin

I have that happen, Thinking I had a timber frame with 34' timbers in it, I added some with the next load of logs coming in. That cost extra, The job went to some else. They use 2 18' logs.
The other guy was cheaper.
Sometimes I get a call for the long stuff, and when I ask about the rest of the frame [shorter stuff] They say they have someone will sell cheaper .
I feel like I'm only getting the hard stuff sometimes.
Or like to tell them I'll do the long stuff if I get the rest of the frame.
One time I sent out the long stuff, The other guy got the short stuff.
A week later I get a call that the other guys beams were awful.
And can I do the short stuff, [now] ::) Timber frame guy standing there with no wood to work on. :D :D :D :D
I jump the price .20 a bf and told them in 2 weeks I can start.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

PA_Walnut

As long as we deal with "people", these things will happen.

It's akin to a story a good preacher friend told me, "You could build the perfect church--one with jeweled walls, golden doors and carpets of silk. Yet, the first time a person walks through the door, it's broken and failing."  :D

So goes it with customers. All have intricacies, challenges, failings, and unique traits. So long as I'm having fun with what I do and paying the bills, I guess I'm ahead of the curve.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

I had a Lady order 250 square feet of blue pine to put on a ceiling.  I sawed the boards, air dried, then kiln dried them and called to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Texted her that the wood was ready.  It has been going on about 3 months.  The wood is sitting under the air drying shed.  I suspect that the kiln dried wood has reverted to air dried wood again  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

longtime lurker

yup to all of the above and thats just how it goes in the sawmill game.

I'm pretty used to the order sharing thing because the bulk of my volume goes to the retail guys and they tend to split orders up to suit their suppliers capacities etc. I couldnt cut enough to keep up with any one of the three for total sales anyway, but I get some of the good and some of the bad and between them they give me the volume I need to stay one step ahead of the wolves in bankers clothing.

I got this maxim that we'll quote every job that comes through the door: Some we quote like we want them and some we quote like we don't, and for every 5 quotes we'll surely get one, and if we're lucky we'll get two or three... and if we're really unlucky we'll get the whole danG lot.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: WDH on November 24, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I had a Lady order 250 square feet of blue pine to put on a ceiling.  I sawed the boards, air dried, then kiln dried them and called to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Texted her that the wood was ready.  It has been going on about 3 months.  The wood is sitting under the air drying shed.  I suspect that the kiln dried wood has reverted to air dried wood again  :).

You should have required a reposit.   ;D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

YellowHammer

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 24, 2017, 03:00:35 PM
Quote from: WDH on November 24, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I had a Lady order 250 square feet of blue pine to put on a ceiling.  I sawed the boards, air dried, then kiln dried them and called to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Called her to tell her that the wood was ready.  Texted her that the wood was ready.  It has been going on about 3 months.  The wood is sitting under the air drying shed.  I suspect that the kiln dried wood has reverted to air dried wood again  :).

You should have required a reposit.   ;D

I'll trade that Alaskan Mill I was going to send to Poston for Christmas for some of your re-airdried pine. :D. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 24, 2017, 03:00:35 PM

You should have required a reposit.   ;D




Or at least a trailer or two. :D :D :D ;D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 24, 2017, 06:07:42 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 24, 2017, 03:00:35 PM

You should have required a reposit.   ;D




Or at least a trailer or two. :D :D :D ;D ;)


Ya Dang right! You're learning Peter.  :D :D :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin




Ya Dang right! You're learning Peter.  :D :D :D
[/quote]




:D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Peter Drouin

Had another lumber yard call and want a bunch of 1x12x12.
I don't care because they pay the listed price.
The plan was from the getgo was to pick up this Friday with a check.
He calls and says I'm sending a truck. I say ok and bring a check. Well, he says I can have a check in 3 or 4 working days.
I tell him when he has a check come and get the lumber. ;D
He starts ranting and raving, Our co. has been in biz for 35 years.
I told him my co polity is no lumber goes with not paying.
He din't have a trailer to leave Mr goat, :D :D :D ;D
So he hangs up on me. ::) ::)
I don't care, my lumber sells without the [ middle man]
He calls back, and I let the answer thing get it.
So well see how this goes. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Dave Shepard

I'm with you. Not going to extend credit. Nothing personal, I'm just not a bank.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

4x4American

Well now the price just went up didn't it?
Boy, back in my day..

Resonator

"That'll be cash, on the barrel head son! Not part not half, but the entire sum!
No money down, no credit plan! 'Cause a little bird tells me, your a travelin' man!"

(song by The Louvin Brothers, originally recorded 1956.)
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

Peter Drouin

Quote from: 4x4American on November 30, 2017, 08:19:50 PM
Well now the price just went up didn't it?





It's going to after the first of Jan. :D :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

Quote from: Dave Shepard on November 30, 2017, 07:58:17 PM
I'm with you. Not going to extend credit. Nothing personal, I'm just not a bank.

Same here
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

YellowHammer

That's why we take plastic.  We don't even take checks.  People can be in debt up their wazoo but as long as their card works, I get paid and they get the wood.

I tell people, only half jokingly, if they don't have cash, and they don't have a debit card, and they don't have a credit card, then I probably don't want their check. ::)




YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

You have a good point Yellow Hammer.
Most of my customers pay with cash. If he had set up an account with me head of time things would have been ok.
I sell a lot of lumber to contractors, Most pay with a check when they come to get lumber.
Some are putting up a timber frame or barn. [a lot of lumber] The ones I know I give a little time to pay. Like when One sends the help to get some lumber for a job. Then the boss comes the next day or two to pay up.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

thecfarm

Probably if he would of talked to you about the check being 3-4 working days late,instead of just throwing that out after plans was made for Friday,things might of been differant.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

YellowHammer

Although some bosses don't want their employees to have the company credit card when they pick up the lumber, (some do), any company that has a business account with a bank will have a company credit card.  The account is guaranteed with the bank.   

Some of he owners call up and tell me their people are coming and give me the credit card number over the phone, real time.  The owners like it because they get an electronic receipt to their phone or email even if they are a hundred miles away as soon as I run their card.

It takes the unknowns out of the transaction.   

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Crossroads

I signed up for a paypal business account that came with a free card reader. I haven't used it yet, but I think it will be a handy tool.
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

longtime lurker

All I can say to that guys is I'm jealous. It's not that we dont do cash on the barrellhead transactions with people we dont know, it's that as a % of total sales value its nothing compared to the couple of bigger retail guys that make up 90% of my work.

I get it... mostly their regular sales are to account customers that dont pay them for a month and they have the same cashflow headaches I do because of it. And theres a fair bit (at times) of they would find another supplier if I insisted on cash on delivery simply because of the cash flow drama it would create for them.
But there's other times when I get a bit peeved that little old me is carrying a couple of timber merchants with 6-10 staff and a yard full of stock each and scratching mid month because every bit of cash I've got is tied up in either logs for this month and receivables from last month. Sometimes I'll do a "maintenance standdown" mid to late in the month for a day or so and its not really a maintenance stand down.... its a waiting for some guy to walk off the street and buy something so I can get fuel in my tanks to switch her on again.
The upside of those guys of course is sheer volume. I cant really compete with the big mills further south on cost of production but I can when the freight bill to land it at this end of the state comes on top... the size of some of those jobs even at the low wholesale margins still adds up. (3 x 1... 4000 at 8', 4000 at 10' deliver ASAP but not later then christmas is the next one and as y'all know thats some tonnage of logs to chew through, and fuel, and wages and something will break and need fixing every week for sure)

What I really need to do is organise myself a bit better and try and do some more of that local retail stuff just to keep those regular small payments coming in. I havent sold enough timber in my immediate area this year to keep me in beer and cigarettes. I'll just set myself up for that in my spare time :D :D :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

rjwoelk

Most of our transactions are etransfers has worked very well.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Jim_Rogers

A customer called me the other day and said, as we speak a big black walnut tree is being cut down in my yard. And he wanted me to come over and view it.
The answer machine took the message as I was out cutting timbers for a timber frame shed in progress here in my yard.
He called again the next day. I happened to answer the phone.
I told him that I maybe able to get to it in February.
Oh my you should have heard his comments about that.
I asked him who cut it down?
He told me so and so company.
I asked if they had a log truck or not.
He said he didn't know what a log truck was.
I promptly told him a log truck is a truck that hauls logs, duh.
He said he didn't know if they did or not.

So anyway, my guy is suppose to move it over here for him, sometime.
We'll see how good it is when it gets here.

Another electrician, hauled a bunch of walnut in here last week on a flat bed truck.
I looked at it before we did anything.
I asked him: "what do you want me to do with this load of 'firewood'"?
He said, well some of it is straight.
We got it off his truck.
Thursday he called to see if he could pick it up. I told him it wasn't sawn out yet.
He said he was leaving for vacation on Wednesday.
I told him to call me when he gets back and we'll see when it will be done around then.

Some people expect their order to go to the top of the list just because it's them.

Some get an education about lists.
(end rant)
Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Southside

Had a guy call me a couple of weeks back looking for an order of cedar for board and batten siding.   I called him back and left a message that it would be two weeks before it would be ready and gave him the price.  So he calls me back, says he needs the wood now as the "horse lady" wants the run in shed done before the bad weather sets in - I guess this year the calendar must be different than other years so they were caught by surprise, so suddenly this is my problem.  I politely explained to him that his siding was still in tree form and not even felled yet, plus our ERC always has hidden surprises so when sawing a cut list I have a lot of non target wood that ends up in the sale pile,  so two weeks was a pretty good deal, $2 / BFT.  Then he says he thinks it "should be cheaper", wants to know how much trim will be left on the boards, and he will call me back.  I wrote it off right then and there, figured if he called back he was going to have to put down a deposit.  He did call back a few days later - wanted to know if the wood was ready, umm no, so he goes into a fit about how he has to get this shed closed in and he has run out of cedar.  For some reason I decided to offer him pine as an option - it's unfinished board and batten siding anyway, I figure I can use some of the logs I have sitting right on the pile, and pine saws fast.  I offer it to him for $0.60 / BFT - figure how can he say no.  Never hear back from the guy - just as well.  There are some customers who are not worth having. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

reedco

        Every business has its likenesses and differences. I dug 53000 dollars worth of ditch, on come do the job. I say I will be there. Then the office manager (part owner) says i will send you a check if you send me a W 9 I could not see the equity but it all worked out. May be next time 1/2 down?
Not many trees

PA_Walnut

$53K of ditch sounds like a whoopee of job. How big was it?
I need to start digging more ditches with my backhoe...have a capable machine and like digging, so why not?  ;D
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

I had a customer call and say that he was on the way to get some wood for a project, and needed it ASAP.  Said that he was 30 minutes out and he would be there by 6:30 p.m.  It was later than I usually meet people, but because he was in a bind, I decided to wait for him.  6:30 comes, 7:00 comes.  No guy.  Call him, no answer.  7:30 comes.  No guy.  Call him.  No answer.

A week goes by.  Dude calls again at 10:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning.  Said something came up before and that he could not make it.  Said he was on the way again, be there in 20 minutes.  About 45 minutes go by.  No dude.  Call.  No answer.  Call again about 20 minutes later.  No answer.  Never showed.

About 2 weeks go by.  Get a call.  By now after calling that # so many times, I recognize the #.  Decide not to answer as I am PO'ed at this dude.  No respect for me, cannot even call and tell me that he is standing me up.  Call rolls over to voice mail.  Dude leaves a message.  He is obvious upset that I did not answer, and is at the point of yelling at me on the message because he needs wood NOW.  Now this dude is on the "Bad Peter" list...(new old saying). 

About a month goes by.  Watching the local news at supper.  News report of a domestic incident.  Police called.  A man has a gun and is threatening to kill wife.  Police show up, guy comes out of house with gun, begins shooting police.  Police shoot back.  Dude is dead.  When I heard the guy's name, could not believe it.  It was my dude.  Poor dude, never got his wood, had to end up settling for lead.

As I pondered this, I realized that this dude had problems, and I could have been in danger if he somehow got upset at me or the wood.  Glad that he was a low down, unreliable, loser, and never showed up.  Sometimes it is best to be stood up (old saying).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Maybe he needed the lumber to build a coffin, just didn't know when he would need it??    ::)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

WOW, Dose this mean you will keep a 45 on your hip now,  :D :D :D :D
Just never know.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

xlogger

Quote from: WDH on December 24, 2017, 07:36:55 AM
I had a customer call and say that he was on the way to get some wood for a project, and needed it ASAP.  Said that he was 30 minutes out and he would be there by 6:30 p.m.  It was later than I usually meet people, but because he was in a bind, I decided to wait for him.  6:30 comes, 7:00 comes.  No guy.  Call him, no answer.  7:30 comes.  No guy.  Call him.  No answer.

A week goes by.  Dude calls again at 10:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning.  Said something came up before and that he could not make it.  Said he was on the way again, be there in 20 minutes.  About 45 minutes go by.  No dude.  Call.  No answer.  Call again about 20 minutes later.  No answer.  Never showed.

About 2 weeks go by.  Get a call.  By now after calling that # so many times, I recognize the #.  Decide not to answer as I am PO'ed at this dude.  No respect for me, cannot even call and tell me that he is standing me up.  Call rolls over to voice mail.  Dude leaves a message.  He is obvious upset that I did not answer, and is at the point of yelling at me on the message because he needs wood NOW.  Now this dude is on the "Bad Peter" list...(new old saying). 

About a month goes by.  Watching the local news at supper.  News report of a domestic incident.  Police called.  A man has a gun and is threatening to kill wife.  Police show up, guy comes out of house with gun, begins shooting police.  Police shoot back.  Dude is dead.  When I heard the guy's name, could not believe it.  It was my dude.  Poor dude, never got his wood, had to end up settling for lead.

As I pondered this, I realized that this dude had problems, and I could have been in danger if he somehow got upset at me or the wood.  Glad that he was a low down, unreliable, loser, and never showed up.  Sometimes it is best to be stood up (old saying).
Not a customer but after reading this it was near the same, the Tampa serial killer younger brother when to school with my grandkids. My daughter has been around him several times.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

YellowHammer

Crazy people out there.  Typically, there are warning signs.  I get occasional repeat no shows, after the second time I block their phone number, a couple button pushes on the iPhone.  I don't want to waste time with them, don't want to escalate the situation, and don't want to talk to them.  No different than scammers in my book.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Magicman

I deal with a few "dead" calls for sawing.  I may drive by and yup they have logs staged and ready.  I may be in the area six month or so later and the logs are there but overgrown with tall grass.  A year or more later and the (no good) logs remain.  Either the need for lumber changed or the "customer" did not have the $$$ to have it sawn.

I also occasionally watch a stickered stack of lumber gradually go to waste.  I know of one location where there is over 12Mbf of Cypress that I sawed over 5 years ago.  The lodge was never built and the lumber rots.

Maybe health issues or financial woes, but things change.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 24, 2017, 08:02:01 AM
WOW, Dose this mean you will keep a 45 on your hip now,  :D :D :D :D


Bad Peter.  :D :D :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Magicman on December 24, 2017, 08:28:23 AM
I know of one location where there is over 12Mbf of Cypress that I sawed over 5 years ago.  The lodge was never built and the lumber rots.


The 14,000 bf Barn Package I just finished will now not be built.

The customer had a northern come down and buy his farm for a very nice profit.
I got paid for sawing it and now I'm getting paid for selling it.
I wonder if who ever buys this lumber will pay me to build it?  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

btulloh

HM126

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