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figuring out how to charge

Started by Qweaver, November 13, 2017, 02:24:35 PM

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Peter Drouin

A lot more work and heavy, Most times it's long timbers, Side boards are cut shorter.
Boxing the heart and stuff. Going slower that way. 8' to 16' I can jam. :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

starmac

I can understand that. I just had it in my mind that the extra board foot in the log would compensate for it taking longer, but I haven't sawn anything over 16 foot to speak of.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I'm sawing framing lumber now. Big nice SYP.
Today I sawed 1000 BF of 2x12x12. Beautiful boards.

I charge .25 cents a bf or $250.00 / thousand.
Just me and my Backhoe with forks on it.

Each board cost him about $6.00. About 42 boards.
A 1-1/2" x 11 1/4" x 12 Pine board at the building center is $25.68.

Just saying.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

Just like when I sell timbers,  the customer pays for the whole log, not just the timber out of it in the price. Then I sell the boards again. ;D


  

  

  

  
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

RPowers

I don't see how the OP is cutting many 40" logs on an LT28 unless he's splitting them first. Back with my LT28 those sized logs would take a half-day or more each. I'm $.50/bdft or $75/hr now, straight through. I decide which when I look at the job and see which works out the best overall. I like the idea of just going straight board foot pricing and scaling the logs instead of the lumber. With the often crooked and half-hollow hardwoods I cut that would improved the bottom line and make things simpler.

2013 Woodmizer LT28G25 (sold 2016)
2015 Woodmizer LT50HDD47

YellowHammer

I wouldn't even turn my mill on for 12 cents per bdft.
:D :D
I charge 50 cents per bdft and turn people away from getting too much business.  I refused two jobs today.  I have more than I can do to feed my kilns anyway.

I was the highest guy around, everybody else charged 30 cents per bdft, and Craigslist was full of sawyers.  Now, they are gone, out of business, and I'm the only one around, at least that's what the customers are telling me. 

Charge what you are worth and what it takes to keep you in business, let the other guys race toward the bottom.

Don't let a customer make you feel guilty.  Tell him to go buy a mill and give it a go. 
 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Chop Shop

A smart man told me years ago,   "double your price, you will only have to do half the work for the same income and the customers you receive will be twice the quality of the cheap ones".

I cant/wont compete with low quality/price.

Peter Drouin

Chop Shop, Yellow Hammer, You guys are right on the money. smiley_beertoast
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

PA_Walnut

Yellow is right on the money...may become my new hero!  :D

That's my model also. (particularly with my other business). Right now it's a race to the bottom over there, but our quality and top-of-pyramid paradigm remains. Customers migrate back once they feel the pain near the bottom.  It can test one's patience in the meantime though.  :-[
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

florida

I can't imagine how you could possibly be making any money at that price. I'm not in the sawmill business but I am in the service business and I'd be bankrupt quickly at $45.00.  I have a $4,000.00 pressure washer we use a lot and if I'm not making $125.00 an hour off of it and 1 man I leave it home. Even at $125.0 an hour, I'm not getting rich.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

rjwoelk

When I started the firewood business,  I tooknall my cash costs my investment costs labour everything that cost me money. Then added profit. If they did not buy my product that was just fine I do not need to go broke because some one wants to do it cheeper. I see lots of guys on here doing things for next to nothing, maybe making a wage if that,  a good product and good service will win over cheep price.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Qweaver

Quote from: RPowers on November 13, 2017, 11:24:08 PM
I don't see how the OP is cutting many 40" logs on an LT28 unless he's splitting them first. Back with my LT28 those sized logs would take a half-day or more each. I'm $.50/bdft or $75/hr now, straight through. I decide which when I look at the job and see which works out the best overall. I like the idea of just going straight board foot pricing and scaling the logs instead of the lumber. With the often crooked and half-hollow hardwoods I cut that would improved the bottom line and make things simpler.
I sawed them with a Peterson.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

plowboyswr

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 13, 2017, 07:20:51 PM
   Somebody (but I forget who - maybe cwimer? They say your memory is the second thing to go and I can't remember what the first was) recently posted his policy of charging a flat rate fee per each log and had a specified size restriction on how big the log could be based on his mill constraints.

    I still keep kicking that around and if anybody else is or has been doing so I'd love to hear an update. Both the customer and the sawyer know exactly how much it will cost before the first board is ever cut.
Yep you're right on cwimer. He charges for a base price for 8' logs regardless of diameter. $100 I believe.
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

bkaimwood

YH  Took the words right out of my mouth. I won't even walk down to the barn to hook the mill up to the truck for $.12 a board foot. You can't possibly stay in business charging $45 an hour with $200,000 in equipment unless someone gives you all your equipment. 😂 Doing wide slabbing is an altogether different animal... As you already know, few people can even saw that big, so not that you need to take it advantage of the situation, but you very easily could be charging at least 2 to 3 times what a standard mill fee would be. Your new customer is best off being your competitors customer at the rates mentioned... He clearly sees no value in your services or being able to saw as big as you can, or the 40 inch logs that he provided.  Craigslist and the market in general is flooded with sawmills, new sawyers, portable sawmill services, wood slabs, rough cut lumber and related materials...at least in this area. It hurts us all to some degree, how ever the impact is relatively minor and short term. We are in it for the long-haul. There are plenty of guys out there charging anywhere from $30-$60 an hour to run portable sawmills.  I've seen lots of them come... And lots of them go... And the cycle continues. We are double that price, and pretty darn busy. For wide sliding, we are triple the price... And pretty busy there too.  Never compete on price alone. You will lose.
BK
bk

LaneC

  First off, I don't have a mill. I have always wanted one, but physically I cannot do it. However, if I could, would it be, "acceptable" I guess would be a good word to use, if a new sawyer milled at a good bit cheaper rate to gain experience. In other words, let the customer know the only reason you are cheaper than anyone else, is because you are trying to gain experience, and as you gained experience, you would go up on your price. I don't know, but it seems that the type of folks that are really trying to get more than they are paying for, may not mind that they are not getting a well experienced sawyer as long as they think they are getting more than they are paying for. I hope this makes sense.
Man makes plans and God smiles

WV Sawmiller

Lane,

   Sure it would be okay. If a guy just wanted to practice I am sure he could post notices on local feed stores and trade papers and such and find folks who would be glad to let him cut free or pay a little. As long as you notified them up front should be just fine. If you screwed up on some wood could still use it for firewood or such.

   If so I'd keep a log of what kind of wood and how many bf I had cut (I do that anyway) then when I wanted to start charging more I could use that as experience.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

starmac

LaneC, I do not know what all your wants consists of, nor the extent of your physical capabilities.
That said, a hydraulic mill is not a lot of physical work, infact if you have or can get a helper, you can sit in a chair and do the milling.
As far as working  (sawing) cheap to learn. The only thing I knew about a mill when I got mine was I wanted one, I was totally amazed at how easy it was to cut nice uniform boards pretty much from the very first cut. Now that said, our spruce is very forgiving and from what I gather from reading this forum is easy compared to other species. I do know I start with straight logs, and have never put any thing on my mill like some of the stuff I see pictured on here, I think my mill would quit me if I did.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

LaneC

Thanks for the replies. Sitting is about how I would have to do it most of the time. I just would not like to bid a low ball figure and knock someone out of an opportunity that did this for a living. Like WV. says, I could practice on their logs, but surely letting them know up front about the experience level, or lack there of I should say.
Man makes plans and God smiles

YellowHammer

I had some experience milling my own logs before I cut my first customer log, but there was a learning curve and apprehension in possibly butchering up someone elses wood.  The solution to initial success for me was to go slow and concentrate, something pretty much impossible if milling offsite at a customer property or a customer is present talking in my ear.

My solution was to have the customers bring their logs to me, I'd fit them in the line and call them when the lumber was ready for pickup, typically no more than a week or two.  So I could take my time without bystanders distracting me.  I charged by the bdft, so speed didn't matter, quality and yield was the goal.

I still mill all customers logs at my place simply because with all the support equipment I have to mill logs for our business, it's a lot easier and more efficient.  I prefer to charge by the bdft because as my support equipment increased, my bdft per hour went up and I could make more money.  The customers didn't have to pay more, I could just simply do more jobs in the same amount of time. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Brucer

Quote from: starmac on November 13, 2017, 09:26:35 PM
... why the change to hourly over 16 foot?...

In my case, the price per BF starts to go up over 20' (which is the length of my mill). The price increases for every foot over 20' and takes a big jump at 26' (when the log is on the second 6' extension).

"How come?", customers want to know.

First off, the taper in the log means I'll be getting a disproportionate amount of lower value side lumber off a long log. A 30' D.Fir log with a 12" top will give me an 8x8x30' timber; or it will give me an 8x8x16' timber plus an 8x12x16' timber. 25% more high-value wood. And the price per BF for an 8x12 is higher than for an 8x8.

Second, I need auxiliary equipment (i.e., a front-end loader) to get the longer logs onto the mill. It takes extra time to jump on the loader each time I want to load a log. With shorter logs I just stage a bunch beside the mill and "Logrite" them to the hydraulic loader.

Third, there is a lot more work involved in dealing with 30' side lumber -- each piece has to be sawed into 3 shorter pieces. Same thing with slabs.

Finally, there is the matter of dealing with really long timbers. With ramps and roller tables I can handle a 20' 8x12 by myself without any machinery. A 30' 8x12 is going to require more time and some machinery.

These things all add up. I'd happily sell you a 30' 10x10 (to be supported by 3 posts), or 2 16' 10x10's for half as much money (to be supported by the same 3 posts). It's your money -- is the "wow" factor of that single long timber worth it? Some people think so, some don't.


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

crowhill

15 years ago I was told to charge $1.00 per hour per horse power, 32 horse power total = $32.00 per hour, for the mill, then decide and add to that, what your time as a skilled tradesman is worth. I'm not sure that formula would hold true today with the increased costs of new equipment, but then again so have the earnings of a skilled tradesman.
TimberKing B-20, Kubota M-4900 w/FEL with tooth bar, hyd thumb and forks, Farmi winch, 4 chain saws.

Kbeitz

Quote from: crowhill on November 19, 2017, 07:05:14 AM
15 years ago I was told to charge $1.00 per hour per horse power, 32 horse power total = $32.00 per hour, for the mill, then decide and add to that, what your time as a skilled tradesman is worth. I'm not sure that formula would hold true today with the increased costs of new equipment, but then again so have the earnings of a skilled tradesman.

Wow... My 13 hp Honda would send me to the poor house.
I charge $50 an hour and everyone is happy.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

coalsmok

Qweaver has the the only swing mill I know of in this area. The problem he is fighting with is that many people don't understand that a swing mill can cut a lot larger log more efficiently than a band or circle mill large enough to do the same size log. Not handling a large oak is worth a lot of $$ and headache relief. This may need to be pushed as a value added aspect to sawing them with a swing mill.
We don't move logs very far if at all with our band mill. Especially if it's near the limits of what I can saw, 10 mins setup is a lot easier than 10 mins fighting a large log with the risk of injury. Dad and I cut and removed some large pine from a yard this year doing this and you couldn't tell we had been there other than the stumps.
  There are small band mills scattered all around. I know a five in a less than 5 mile radius from my house. Circle mills are not all that uncommon either though the knowledge to run them well is fading I think. 
  If I had known a few years ago about a swing mill in the area I would have had a maple in a remote area of our farm cut up. It's to hard to get a tractor to but I could have hauled out curly maple boards for days with a four wheeler. It's spalted curly maple now on its way to becoming to rotten now though.

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