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Back up generator advice needed

Started by 47sawdust, November 03, 2017, 04:40:39 PM

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florida

I've installed several 25W whole house systems that needed a 1000 gallon buried propane tank. My problem with propane is the $2400.00 of propane in the tank that may sit for 10 years between uses. That's a lot of money to keep tied up a long time. I've used my 6Kw Honda 3 times in 14 years and I live in a very active hurricane zone. The total run time for those 14 years is less than 120 hours. Diesel looks pretty good to me.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

WV Sawmiller

    Florida makes a good point about the money tied up in the propane but since you already have and use propane and the local company indicates they can support you this may not be as much of a concern. It may be a factor for others considering setting up such a genset. If they can use the propane for other purposes such as hot water, heat, cooking, dryer, etc. they can help justify the cost. I love gas for these purposes too and find it much preferable to electric.  I'm extremely lucky with natural gas in that I don't have to pay for stored gas. I just pay for it as I use it.

    I put my genset in because of power outages in the winter due to local ice storms. The one time I really used it extensively turned out to be from 30 June-11 July during a freak summer storm. If I lived in Fla, where I was born and raised, I'd want one for hurricane back up. Anybody who lives in an area subject to dangerous storms of any kind that take out the power, especially those with any kind of health issues, should consider a whole house genset.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Ljohnsaw

I need a short run emergency generator.

I'm building a cabin off grid so I'm doing solar.  I have fire requirements that I have a sprinkler system to be installed.  I was planning on running a pump (~2hp?) capable of delivering ~30 gpm @ ~28-30 psi off my batteries for 10 minutes.  The county insists I have a auto start generator.  Since it will likely never be used (other than maybe to charge the batteries?), I'm thinking propane is the way to go.

So, what size generator and propane supply would be recommended?  I'm thinking a 5 gallon BBQ tank would be enough.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

47sawdust

Well the deal will soon be done.I'm going to Hartford Ct. on Monday to pick up the Kohler unit.It is a 2002 model 169 hours,7kw, with a Kohler transfer switch.After installation the local Kohler dealer will service it twice a year.After installation,I will have $2600.00 in to it.
This feels like the right approach.
Thank you all for your help.
47sawdust
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

sawguy21

old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

plantman

Just a couple of hints. Think carefully about where you're placing the generator. The noise can really keep you up at night so if it's possible to mount it in a box and some distance from the house , it's an advantage. Of course , if you're snowed in then you still have to be able to reach it.
Secondly, some small generators are not recommended for electronic appliances because the power they produce is not "clean". I guess that means it's not steady. I bought a Harbor Freight 4000W generator about 10 years ago and I'm very happy with it but it's only big enough for the essentials. I haven't used it hardly at all so I'm glad I didn't buy anything bigger. I always keep fuel stabilizer in it and run it every few months.

WV Sawmiller

Plantman,

   My first experience with gensets was in the USMC when they set my operation next to the generator farm. Not great. If the genset 47 is talking about is a Guardian type in the fiberglass case he may never know it is running. Mine cranks itself and runs every Sunday afternoon and most weeks I never hear or even know it is running. The first time I heard them was some when had in Haitii and that was a big deciding factor for me to buy one. I have never regretted it yet and I bet 47 doesn't either.

   A big congrats 47. I hope it does everything you need and want it to do.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

John Mc

Quote from: plantman on November 06, 2017, 09:09:04 PM
...some small generators are not recommended for electronic appliances because the power they produce is not "clean". I guess that means it's not steady.

Steady is one thing: it's important to have good voltage and frequency regulation. However, that is not the only factor. The waveform they generate also needs to be clean. The main measure of this is something called Total Harmonic Distortion (THD). For electronics, you want something below 5 or 6%. Cheap generators are often much higher. Even the entry level generators of some big name companies are awful in this regard (the Generac GP series comes to mind - they have something like 23% THD). Manufacturers who have bad THD ratings usually make it tough to find out the rating - you won't find it in their advertisements, and sometimes not even in their owners manuals. THD can to be higher the more heavily the generator is loaded, so make sure any spec you are given is the rating at full load. Further, poor THD performance is not limited to small generators. It happens across the size range.

If you are thinking "OK, I just wont run my TV or computer when running on a generator", think again. You may be kicking yourself if the electronic control system on your furnace won't come online when the power goes out and it's below zero out. (Older furnaces without the modern control systems are usually more tolerant of dirty power.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ianab

One of the small "Inverter" generators should be OK for electronics as they have built in electronics that regulate and smooth the power output. A larger conventional unit will usually smooth out if you have some steady "base load" like lights or a small electric heater running off it.

The little cheap generators are notoriously unstable, especially with a light or fluctuating load. Work OK to run a power drill or angle grinder out on the farm, or some lights etc, but you don't want to be plugging fancy electronics into them.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sawguy21

I am assuming your new to you unit is designed specifically for residential standby use, you will really appreciate it the first time the power goes off.. While not inverter clean, the power should be very close to what is supplied by the utility. The manufacturer will supply guidelines as to minimum distance from buildings as well as doors, windows and fresh air intakes. They are usually reasonably quiet in the weatherproof cabinet although you don't want it outside the bedroom wall.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

47sawdust

The Kohler unit has an insulated enclosure.From what I was told the only time it ran was for weekly exercise.My propane company says the unit must be a minimum 10 feet from the tanks.In my case my electrical panel and tanks are in close proximity.If I'm 10 feet from the tanks I'm probably 20 feet from the panel.This location is on the opposite side of the house from our bedroom,easily accessible and flat (we don't have a lot of flat).I'm hoping for a smooth installation.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Kbeitz

I have a line conditioner on my gen-set.
You can get them cheap off E-bay...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Roxie

@Kbeitz, Cowboy Bob is NOT gonna be happy that you shared that picture of your generator cover.   :D  That is gorgeous! 
Say when

John Mc

Sawguy21 is right, most of the permanently mounted generators designed specifically for residential standby use produce power clean enough to run anything you want. You don't have to have inverter quality power (which generally beats the quality of the power company) to run sensitive equipment.

As far as power conditioners go, most I've seen focus on voltage regulation (i.e. keeping your 120/240 VAC right at 120/240) and surge suppression. I'm not sure what they do for THD or frequency stabilization, but there may be some out there that help with that.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Don P

We lost power for a day a couple of weeks ago when an F1 tornado hit about 5 miles away. It dropped a tree on our helper's mother's car while she was driving as it passed through, luckily she dove into the seat. Anyway, another friend who is now in her 70's and living alone had pulled out the whole house generator and had a little pull start unit put in. She fired it up and began hearing sizzling and popping in the house. She cooked a few things and burned up an outlet strip. I'm assuming someone jury rigged it to the transfer switch, I don't think she would or could run a suicide cord. We've talked briefly but I haven't seen what went on.
I'm guessing the little unit was making power or grounding differently than mains power. Any clues?

John Mc

Sizzling and popping makes me wonder if someone wired the plug wrong and delivered 240 into a 120 line?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Don P

I'll try to get a post mortem from the electrician. Where my mind was wandering to, on a portable generator with plugs and breakers there must be a ground-neutral bond at that panel? The house panel would also have a bond... and now my pea just sits there and says "so?", and I don't know.

John Mc

Well, you've got me going now, Don P. I know with some generators, you have to separate the ground to neutral bond before connecting it to your home (or maybe you have to connect it? I can't remember which.)  Generators designed to work on a job site are wired one way, and those designed to connect to a house are wired another. I can't remember the details, but I didn't remember the difference causing things to go snap-crackle-pop - unless there were other problems.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Don P

We're at the same place. A foggy memory of stories of those little generators not being able to just plug up to a panel because of a bonding problem. I think you would unbond ground from neutral in the generator panel and run 4 wires to the house panel, hot, hot, neutral, ground?

What happens in the double bonded scenario if there is a wire on the wrong screw somewhere in the house with something plugged into it?

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