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Looking for a safe way to drop 2 problem trees

Started by maple flats, October 24, 2017, 09:14:36 AM

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maple flats

I have 2 trees, a large maple and a large cherry to take down. The large maple (about 36" dbh) and the cherry (about 30" dbh) both have large cavities in the trunk. I'm trying to decide how to safely take them down. I don't have enough on any side to cut a dependable hinge nor is there enough solid wood to use wedges to push either tree over. I'm thinking I might use a ladder to hook a good cable up high, then pull from over 100' away using my brother's 10,000# skid steer with a 8800# pull logging winch on it, with my brother running the winch as I cut the tree. Still studying that idea.
I need to remove these trees because I putting in a storage barn with a blacksmith shop on the back, a lean-to roof for farm equipment on one side and a walk in cooler for syrup storage on the other which would be destroyed if the trees fell in it in the future. Both trees are in the woods, but in the middle of an old "junk yard" from a previous owner. I've cleaned some up but there's still lots of old broken glass and rusted tin. This is likely from long before the 50's because I used to spend time in these woods when I was 10-15 and the dump was old then.
Any suggestions? As mentioned I have access to the 10,000 skid steer with a Fransgard V4000 winch on the back, and an 8000# excavator. For the last 8 years or so, I've used the excavator to push up about 10-12' high to get trees to fall in the right direction instead of wedges but these would be fool hardy to try that way. Each has a cavity from the ground up, the maple has maybe an opening of 10-15" into the cavity on one side and it appears the remaining live wood is only 4-6" thick the rest of the way around. On the cherry, a similar spot in the trunk, but while the center is soft it has not yet rotted away, so on that I don't even know how much good wood it there. On the maple the hollow extends up about 8-10' and on the cherry the dead face goes up maybe 2' higher. This being said, the upper part of the trees look somewhat normal, no major dead or dying limbs.
I suspect something either in the dump or maybe an old logging injury caused the damage, but that was long before I owned it.
I have completed courses 1 an 2 of the Game Of Logging, but this is beyond the scope of what I learned in those.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Weekend_Sawyer

Hollow trees that big are scary.

I would try and get a price to have someone drop them for me.

Jon
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

TKehl

I think I'd get a quote on a "cut and drop" from a tree service before proceeding.  They can be pretty darn reasonable especially if there is good access and can be dropped in large sections.

These are big enough that I don't know if I would cut them.  If I did, I would proceed with extreme caution.  Maybe a plunge cut to see how much good wood is really there and a large wedge.  The re-evaluate the tree service bid.

I agree with pulling the trees over if you do decide it yourself.  I would want to be away from the trunks as much as possible.  Cut a bit, pull, if it doesn't come over slack the line, cut a bit more... repeat as needed.  Go slow.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Ianab

If access is good then it wont take long for someone with a bucket truck to take the tops out and lay the trunks  on the ground. That would be the safest option.

Otherwise

Quote from: TKehl on October 24, 2017, 01:24:20 PM

I agree with pulling the trees over if you do decide it yourself.  I would want to be away from the trunks as much as possible.  Cut a bit, pull, if it doesn't come over slack the line, cut a bit more... repeat as needed.  Go slow.

Yeah, this sort of thing. Set the rope first and just take the slack out. You don't want to be cutting when there is tension on the rope as that can cause the tree to come apart in an unpredictable way. If you are 2 tree lengths away working the winch and the trunk snaps in 1/2, at least it wont fall on your head. Then do a very shallow notch, even if the middle is missing, the two sides should still act as hinge wood. Then make a back cut, wedges and the rope to support the tree.

Next walk around the long way to your winch and give it a pull. If it wont come over, ease off the tension and whittle a bit more. Don't walk through the fall zone once you've started cutting.

But it really depends on how hollow the trunk is. If it's only just holding the tree up as things are, the hinge wood can collapse before it should, and then things go pear shaped fast. Having the rope set and a light tension on it still gives some direction control, and of course make sure you have clear escape paths planned.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Riwaka

If you are not going to blow out the neighbour's windows with the shock wave or otherwise have a swat team or TAF, FBI, DHS etc called out, you might consider explosives if the conditions are right, otherwise it might be an expensive bind the tree at the bottom and lift the top off piece by piece with a large crane.

Explosives
https://youtu.be/KXW_RIfuiB4

High arm bucket and tree rigged (but not under tension) to skid steer to control fall away from high bucket if the butt does collapse.
https://youtu.be/GbseB99a1ZM  (8 mins)

Stuart Caruk

Hard to go wrong with explosives. 4 or 5 wraps of primer cord would probably be fine on a rotted tree.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

luvmexfood

Would it be feasible to rent one of the pull behind bucket lifts and go up in the tree and cut your way down.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

mike_belben

Pics. 

Consider drilling some holes to see how much solid vs dirt wood you got in there.
Praise The Lord

maple flats

No chance for a tree bucket truck to get close enough. I think I'll follow TKehl's approach. I studied it closer today, it appears the maple may have enough solid wood to cut a shallow wedge' Then I'll get the winch cable up at least 25' in the tree. I'll have my brother put some light tension on the cable, then I'll cut from the back about 6" in, stand well back and have him pull. If it won't come, I'll repeat maybe 4" deeper with light pressure and the get away and pull again. I'll keep repeating until it's down, then I'll repeat with the cherry using the same method. I think both are solid enough to allow a shallow wedge cut to help it go in the right direction. I'll try to get pictures after they are on the ground.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Gearbox

Don't pull hard with the winch . When I drop a dead or problem tree I snug up the cable cut a wedge out and hinge it on each side . cut and leave a good hinge then pull it down . Most times the weight of the cable will pull it down without any more pulling .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

GAB

Using a winch to tug on it is great, however once it starts to go you can not reel in the cable fast enough therefor you lose control.
Be careful.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Maine372

you got a 10k lb skidsteer? build a road to the tree, get a bucket truck got to get them on the ground for you. well worth you not taking on the risk to have the guy with the training and insurance do it. and he will appreciate the not beating up his truck.

mike_belben

Park the skid steer at an offset to the tree and make sure hes got some get away room to zip backwards if the tops are comin at him.  Itll also help keep it pulling as the cable slacks, as mentioned.
Praise The Lord

Ianab

Quote from: mike_belben on October 24, 2017, 09:04:32 PM
Park the skid steer at an offset to the tree and make sure hes got some get away room to zip backwards if the tops are comin at him.  Itll also help keep it pulling as the cable slacks, as mentioned.

Or even better, get a longer cable (or 2)

And make sure you brother KNOWS the plan, he only winches when you have walked clear and given him the "go" signal. If it doesn't come down first time, he needs to slack off most of the tension and wait while you cut some more, get clear again, and another go signal. There is a chance the tree will break apart or barber-chair when it's pulled. As long as both of you are well clear that's not a big problem.

QuoteUsing a winch to tug on it is great, however once it starts to go you can not reel in the cable fast enough therefor you lose control.
Be careful.
Gerald

Agreed, if the hinge wood is compromised it can break off early, the cable has gone slack, and gravity is left in charge. But if everyone is clear and it's falling in the right general direction, it's OK. Be very careful if you need accuracy in the felling. (you might not get it)
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

maple flats

The winch cable is 165' long and he'll be at least 125' out away and he can easily drive forward to get farther away, in fact once he gets set I might just have him drive a little rather than operate the winch. Both trees are under 100' tall and if either goes sideways nothing will be harmed except maybe some junk or a beech or hemlock. The ground is just too soft to get a bucket truck in there and it would take far too much to build a road. His skid steer is on high flotation tracks and he can drive thru wet areas and even cross swamps with it. He has an ASV 85 PosiTrak which only puts 3.5#/sq inch on the ground. The pull would be towards a seasonally wet area, but even in a drought it is still quite damp. In that area I can only drive my 4x4 tractor in the winter and then only if the ground freezes.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

BigBurOak

The way I always does it is cut and run or climb up and cut from the top down.






Who needs a gym if you got a woodpile?

wannaergo

Drill a hole in the bottom, but a 5 pound jug of tannerite in it, and shoot it with a 30.06 from 100 yards out. Problem solved.
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

GAB

Quote from: wannaergo on October 28, 2017, 07:50:26 AM
Drill a hole in the bottom, but a 5 pound jug of tannerite in it, and shoot it with a 30.06 from 100 yards out. Problem solved.

Might work, however it may leave him with other less desirable consequences.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

maple flats

We're going to try dropping the trees the week after next. It turned out I remembered the issues wrong. The maple tree is far more solid in appearance, the bad part has almost closed up. I still don't trust the integrity of the trunk. That one goes first. The the cherry was the worst one, when I walked up to check it, I actually pulled a rather large chunk of rotted center out by hand (about 12" across and 7' long. It came out about from about a foot to about 8' up in one chunk. The bad portion higher up hung in there. I guess one thing is in my favor, both trees have their best face on the side I want to make a hinge. I'm just hoping I can get it with my bigger saw with a 34" bar (Husky 365) and full skip chain. Cutting rot is like hitting dirt, you lose sharpness real quick. My other 2 saws are a Husky 359 and I'll put my 24" bar on with full skip, and my 543XP but my longest bar for it is their std 18". If the 365 dulls too soon, and I feel the tree is still supported well enough I'll put on a new chain. I think I have just 3 for that saw. For the 359 24" I only have 1 chain, but changing down to a 20" bar I have 20+ loops. Some way or other I won't run out of sharp chain on this project.
My brother and I have worked together for a whole bunch of projects, we always work out our signals ahead of time.
I'll move over 150' away, out the back side before I have him pull.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

teakwood

i don't think that you will have to change chains within the one cut. maybe she dulls a little but you will be good to finish the cut
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

maple flats

I hope you're right, but I've cut into some logs with lots of rot before and sometimes you need a new chain after just 1 or 2 cuts. Fortunately I have a Maxx chain sharpener. Until about 5-6 years ago I always sharpened by hand using a file, but then I had an employee who even after being shown how many times, did not ever get a chain sharp, and with arthritis getting bad in both thumbs I got the Maxx sharpener. It does a perfect job. When I use it, I generally have 10 or more chains to do, I run all on one side, then change to do the other side and do them. It takes longer than many shops do, because I adjust to cut the minimum off so the chains last longer. Many places using them remove way more than needed so they run short on the tooth length long before the rivets start to get loose.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

ScottAR

My grandparents had a giant pin oak on their place that was probably 5ft at the base and hollow at least 15ft up the tree.   One year it didn't put out any leaves.  We built a big brush fire under it and burned it.
Took 3-4 hours but it went down.  We had the luxury of open area all around so it didn't matter where it went.   Not much help to your situation but may fit someones. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

maple flats

Not an option here. The 2 trees are surrounded by lots of trees, sugar maples, hemlocks, beech and a few black cherries. The ground also is far from flat, with a bunch of pot holes, so much that it's a chore to walk. I can't even drive my 4x4 tractor or excavator in there. The pot holes are generally about 3-4 feet deep with no high ground to stay up on. It the bottom of the pot holes it is wet, usually standing water. About 50' away in the direction I'll drop the trees it levels out and there it is wet in all but the driest time of the year. That is where I'll have my brother with his ASV 85 (18" wide x 7' long tracks in contact with the ground ). Out there it opens up much more so he can drive to get way more as needed.
One of my maple tubing mainlines runs about 10-12' away from the maple to be taken down, I'll cut that line and pull the loose end back into the woods where there is a large area of high ground and open hardwoods. That "high ground is about 4-5' higher than the knoll where the problem trees are, and about 7-8' higher than the wet area we'll pull the trees towards. That's about the extreme spread of this woods elevation wise. That's why I chose the name maple flats.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

One down, one to go. I screwed up  on the maple. Since I was not sure how rotten or big the rotten area was, I left too much hinge. I also decided to use my excavator to push at about 12' up, rather than use the ASV with the Fransgard winch attached to pull. The tree came down and no one got hurt, but the wood where the oversized hinge was turned out to be solid. I actually got a 3' high barber chair. Obviously a 5" hinge on a 31" diameter at the cut tree is too much.  Once I saw it going and as the barber chair started, I backed the excavator so there was no incident. Then I bucked the 2 but logs and pulled them out before remembering I was going to get pictures. The first cut I bucked about 1' above the highest fungus growth. The rot/hollow spot on that one was only about 6" across but it went up the entire 13' of that butt log. I then stuck a stick up in the hollow to see how much farther it went, I bucked a 2' length, but while not hollow at that cut, still punky. That's where I quit for the day.
In preparation for dropping that maple I had to drop a soft maple (12" DBH), then a Hemlock (24" DBH) and then 2 smaller hemlocks (about an 8 and a 10" DBH) just to have an opening to put the maple in. Some of the wide spread limbs took out a few more smaller hemlocks 2-6" DBH, as the tree missed the intended fall zone by about 10' as it barber chaired. The best part is that no one got hurt and it is on the ground. Now I have a real mess to clean up. Since my new shed is coming tomorrow or Friday, I just left each where it fell, the only thing I cut off and removed is the 2 logs off the maple butt because they were totally in the way to drop the cherry which comes down today.
When I cut the cherry, I'm again going to use the excavator to push up about 12' high. I'll leave less hinge. Will let you know how well that goes later. I'll get a few pictures after of both the maple butt log andthe cherry, along with the big mess I have to clean up in the next few weeks.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

mike_belben

Glad your okay.

Thought for the next cut:  your saw is a rotten wood probe.  Sever out your pie cut from the face and get down to investigate real good for condition of the fiber there.  If its not rotten plunge cut the center of the hinge straight and and 2/3 of the way into the trunk watching for chip color.  We are looking to "hit" the rotted out center if it has one.  And also weaken the hinge so as to reduce chair tendancy.   If the center isnt rotted youre in pretty good shape.  Most of the time i will plunge cut into the sides to define my hinges rear edge and also pay attention for chip condition or any spots that cut too easy.    If it all cuts looks normal ill treat it as normal. 

If hinge and holding tab are sound it doesnt take much wood to keep a vertical tree standing on a calm day, however do scan real hard for major missing limbs.  If the tree is straight but had a 14" major limb snap off years back, its out of balance and just not showing you yet.  Thats the only tree i ever had just totally go over backwards. 
Praise The Lord

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