The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations  (Read 1989 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chep

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Age: 32
  • Location: bradford, vt
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 09:10:18 pm »
Slayer
 I usually go pretty deep on my hurdles if the tree is big enough. 2+ inches. Usually try to get my bar half buried. Also have done x patterns that seemed to disrupt flow well. Beech is a tough one because it can compartmentalize a wound so well. We work for a forester who treats beech by making big openings and mopping it all. Says that intense sunlight will stunt them long enough for oak to regenerate and co.pete (oak loves the heat)
 As for other comments, a growing site is phenotype. Meaning soils, aspect, rainfall etc all affect growth. If you know the site then species management and growth rates can be well compared. All about being tuned in to more clues on site.
  I don't really want to turn this into a plantation setting conversation as genetic modification of seedlings is outside the scope of the o.p.
 Ian I will say that radiata pine is not the best example, as it is not.native to NZ and is clearly being meddled with to great degrees.
But great conversation. Good food for thought
 

Online Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11899
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 11:08:10 pm »
Quote
Ian I will say that radiata pine is not the best example, as it is not.native to NZ and is clearly being meddled with to great degrees.

I mentioned it as an example because it's an extreme case of genetic change that HAS occurred over a relatively short period of time. Similar to breeding domestic animals or cultivated plants, which in effect what it now is. In other scenarios people may not have noticed any change, even over a whole lifetime, because many trees can live longer than people, so 10 generations might be ~1000 years, not 10 years like the Radiata.

That doesn't mean that the changes can't occur, just that they may not be as marked, and will take a lot longer.

Trees DO have some genetic variation, because they aren't exact "clones". And in the natural world the faster growing, stronger, straighter trees tend to become the dominant trees in the forest. These are the ones that produce the most seed, so the natural selection favours the "better" trees.  What you are doing with the chainsaw is changing that selection to the poorer specimens, unless you make a conscious decision to remove some of the junk as well, and leave some good seed / future crop trees for next time.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 11:30:18 am »
I cant claim to know which is true, but two different forestors have advised me to cull the slow growers so they dont seed the floor and pass the trait on.

In this sub-debate about genetics and site you are now confusing the two issues. Cutting the slow growers is always a good idea because they are...wait for it...growing slow. Will that trait be passed on if you let them seed in? 



When im thinning a half acre patch of 3 or 4 species thats all the same site condition and theres a 14" dbh red oak thats like a corn stalk that elbowed right between the big'ns and secured some skyline, while the other 14" dbh red oaks are 10 or 15 feet shorter or maybe even leaned over as mid story trees that cant punch thru... 

I mean what else can it be?  Same site, same conditions and species.  I dont really care.  I collect winners.  And i make clearings for them to seed.  No one gave me a refund when pluto stopped being a planet, but ill be holding the bag on my own forestry when the science changes.


A private owner high grading his back 40 is one thing.  A mega land company thats high grading every tract before they subdivide for housing..  That changes a place and it aint right.  We have one here.  And its not like the individual landowners start fixing it.  Look at all the kudzu and dead forest

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 07:40:57 am »
I bid on a residentual back 40 repair job yesterday.  Landowner got a knock on the door, logger was working a job up the street that abutted this guys woods and asked if he wanted it logged, 50/50 split.    Landowner was crunched for cash due to a home remodel, said sure.  They cut, wrote the check and pulled out last year.  He calls me saying hes got about 12 acres where a "select cut" was done and wants the tops cleaned up and burned.  Nice fellow, just doesnt know forestry, thats not a crime.

So i go ride out there and cruise it with him.  It was a diameter limit cut, everything nice over 12" is gone, no dicing of the tops, many many standing smashed stems, and not one piece of rubbish was culled.  He went from having maybe 70% viable stems before harvest to about 15% viable for the future.  And thats only if the other 85% of the scraggly/smashed/dead junk doesnt create a beanpole for the ivy to smother the viables.   

I told him the tops on the ground was the least of natures worries here and quoted 3 rates for repair but explained that all of them include step 1, a chainsaw hike to cull the rubbish.  If i cant cut the vine poles out then i dont want the job.  I brought my 4 year old with me and explained that im here to make future veneer stands for my boy and his to cut.


Online John Mc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4359
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Monkton, Vermont
  • Gender: Male
  • NH TC33D w/ forestry mods, Uniforest 35E winch
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 08:33:14 am »
Mike - I always hate to hear of someone getting taken advantage of like that. Yes, he was in a crunch for cash, and the decision was certainly the landowner's to make, but this does not sound as though it was an informed decision. With the lack of familiarity with forestry, I doubt he had any idea of the damage being done.

We had a logger who operated south of me here in VT who was nicknamed "stinky" by others in the industry. It had nothing to do with his odor. He was known for taking advantage of landowners who were uninformed or new to forest management. (Often, the landowners had no idea just how badly they had been taken.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 08:51:02 am »
Welp, i cant complain, corrective forestry has proven to be an enjoyable niche for me that has no competition.  Little by little its helping me grow a reputation for best practices which will eventually get me onto the coveted sites where top timber grows.  Im in it for the long haul. 
.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
  • Location: On the Rivanna River in VA - soon
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new but the shine is fading...
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 11:42:01 am »
 The type of problems expressed here are one reason why I engaged the forester recommended by our local Piedmont Environmental Council, conservation oriented, and yes liberal in their slant, but I believe I know how to filter.

 Our problem is a little different, not enough tree cutting over the years, trees crowding each other & not growing very fast.   However, I'm certainly glad that the previous owners didn't fall prey to one of the idiots portrayed above.

 Here in Virginia, the state forestry operation does a pretty darn good job of educating landowners, and I like to believe that the  problems Mike sees are less frequent.  Of course landowners have to be willing to absorb reliable information, and there will always be the landowner who needs money & does stupid things.

 Let me repeat some general advice that I have had from more than one forestry expert: most stewardship plans should encompass cutting trees that "no longer contribute to the forest", trees past their prime, and leaving enough contributing trees and to assure continued health & growth.

Is that oversimplified, or does it make sense, in the context of the discussion above?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2017, 12:44:54 am »
I suppose its a reasonable way to put it.  Long as we remember that a private forest is serving its owners private interest, and that can vary.  One person may fancy timber while another is into songbirds or honeybees .. So their specific tree species that benefit the stand could be quite different. 


If there is not a good tree to leave standing (good being subjective) i simply dont leave one.  I pick winners and clear the rest.  Enjoy watching whole new forest come in with a vibrant, bright green, vertical fresh start.  Sunshine on the forest floor is like miracle grow. 

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
  • Location: On the Rivanna River in VA - soon
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new but the shine is fading...
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2017, 01:12:24 am »
 The stewardship plan that the state paid for for our forest allowed us to pick our priorities from 9.  I cannot recall if we picked out three top priorities, or whether we simply arranged the 9 in our  preferred order.  I do recall they dickered with our forester over wording and some other aspects of the plan he wrote before they allowed him to give it to us. I think the changes were more along the order of 'nudging' us to think more about some things VDOF  considered important.  They didn't try to change our chosen priorities per se.

That was 2006, and I don't think the Commonwealth of Virginia pays for the stewardship plans anymore.

 apology in advance, going to slightly off-topic here with a rant.

Along with no longer paying for putting in drain pipes at residential & farm entrances from the public road, we might call these sorts of things a little bit of a tax increase.  Raise fees, stop paying for things, and pretty soon the citizens are being subjected to hidden tax increases.  Sure, these  particular items affect the wealthier than average, landowners after all, but they still amount to tax increases.

I can tell you this: when we raised the fees on court filings, when I was on the local board of supervisors, it was effectively a "cost of government increase".  We even discussed among ourselves how this would affect the lower income folks disproportionately.

But we certainly didn't want to be guilty of raising taxes!  Yes, the money went toward what raised property & and or other traditional and clearly recognizable taxes would have had to go to, but it was not a tax.

PS, check your cell phone bill and bank statements for some of the items that never would've been on there 20 years ago, reimbursements for things like the taxes they pay,  two cents for looking in the mirror twice.

Gosh, in the restaurant business I have to absorb all that in my overhead.

www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2017, 08:08:38 am »
Taxation and inflation always rolls downhill as a pass-it-on fee until it lands at the least organized, most powerless group, the individual retail consumer, who cant do much of anything about it.   

"...grind them down between the millstones of taxation and inflation."


Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
Re: Distinguishing High Grading from Veneer Timber Operations
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2017, 11:38:01 pm »
I sold and delivered some firewood to a disabled guy maybe 10 or 12 miles northeast of me.  While there he mentioned a "monster walnut" somewhere in the woods that his son had accidentally started cutting for firewood.  It was supposedly still standing and he wanted to go halfs with me if i could sell it.   I trudged all over for this mythical walnut that didnt exist. 

Anyhow.. This residential stand was incredibly tall.  Same terrain and species composition as my neighborhood, similar soil and water but just incredibly tall, straight, unbranched oaks and poplars.  Hundred foot plus and a mostly closed canopy.  There were trees with 70' to the first limb, easily 5 sawlogs in a few trees.. Many will become veneer.  Also incredible was the height relative to the diameter.
 Most werent much over 20" dbh i bet.. But they had no taper!  Probably held 14" up to 70feet before branching.  I was in awe. 

The crazy part.. This wasnt timberland, zero management.. It was a rinky dink little neighborhood of 1 to 3 acre lots with houses on them.  Properties just too small to get a logger out for a visit so nature was allowed to let the best stem win, i saw no stumps nor any blowdowns, tall vines etc. 

It really gave me a new basis of perspective to evaluate my neighborhood, which is now a residential subdivision of 5-10 acre lots that were made from a single timber tract owned by a massive land corp that im really starting to hate.  They are the chronic evil highgrader and ive contacted them directly offering TSI service but there was zero interest.  This jerk oversees probably 50,000+ acres and wanted to know if i had a dumptruck to haul him some driveway gravel, that was his only question.  Singlehandedly wrecking our forestry future without a clue.   

Compared to the lots i described, my area is a collection of short, bushy, no side clear yard trees overcrowded into a dying clump of twisty peckerwood and vine tangles.  I cant fix it nearly as fast as they can wreck it.