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New member intro, questions on western juniper, Pinyon pine and Ponderosa

Started by ut_cottonwood, September 05, 2017, 06:24:24 PM

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ut_cottonwood

Hello and good day to everyone, new member here but I have been lurking for years on and off.

Some intro here, feel free to scroll down to the bolded area for my questions

I recently purchased a BSM (Woodland HM126) for hobby use on my property.  I live in the high desert where access to free Juniper and pinyon pine is readily available, with logging operations in nearby mountains limited to ponderosa, some fir and spruce, and occasionally aspen.  Hardwoods are very limited out here.

The wife and I are hobby farmers with a small acreage in New Harmony, UT, about a mile from the Kolob area of Zion National Park. 

I am a detail oriented engineer by trade and building things occupies my free time.

My projects and planned use of the BSM include:
-chicken coops (my wife has 75+ chickens/turkeys, help me  :'( )
-horse and lambing sheds
-a large timber frame barn (years down the road)
-more sheds for my compact tractor, four wheelers, and other items to keep them out of the weather
-maybe a wood shop?
-a significant amount of traditional fencing


My motivation for milling my own lumber is primarily for quality purposes.  I want to use real 2x4, real beams, and also our climate is well suited for using Juniper directly in the soil (posts last 50+ years when tamped properly) so I want to mill some larger juniper beams for structural uses (6"x6"x9') on sheds.  We get 8 to 15" of moisture a year, mostly snow in the winter.

I'm an ex wildland firefighter (summer job during college) and learned to love a chainsaw in those days.  I currently own a Husqvarna 372xp and started with a simple CSM but realized it was too slow and wasteful pretty quick.

On to my questions

-Ive read everything I can find on western juniper milling.  Basically it sounds like it can work but I need to be picky and get good logs with as few knots as possible (true of all logs I suppose), something difficult with these trees.  Any concerns or pointers for me when using these?  Is this uncharted territory?

-has anyone ever used pinyon pine?  there are a few stands near my home with non-typical straightness and height instead of the bushy growth they normally have.  I know they are very sappy logs.

-I can order ponderosa off the mountain.  Is there a good link for the current MBF rate?  What size logs would be best suited for HM126 for price vs. time?  Bigger the better?  I have some calls in to the local loggers but the US Forest Service only does larger contract work so it seems I have to go through a third party.  I don't have the gear to log big logs in the woods anyway so this may not be a big deal.


-last, how long does the pine need to sit to air dry in the arid desert?  We have typical humidity around 5 to 25%.  Is there any shrinkage information specific to the desert?

Thank you in advance everyone, your time and input is appreciated!




Ianab

Welcome to the forum UT.

While those trees are bit outside my home territory, so general guidelines.

Pick the best logs, or the best parts of a log, for the structural parts of the building. Joists, studs, roof beams or trusses etc. Logs with defects like large knots are probably usable for non structural uses like wall cladding, where they really just need to have the structural strength to hold themselves together. Sure you might have a bit of waste, and a good stash of firewood at then end, but a decent log is going to yield up usable material. Knots generally get smaller as you cut towards the centre of the log, which means that you may be able to recover a good 4x4 post from a log, with only small knots scattered through it. And a pile of cladding boards from the outside.

You will start seeing what's possible once you open a few logs up. An 1x8 wall board with a 3" knot is still usable, at least for a chicken shed. A 2x4 with a 3" knot though it isn't much use for anything. 

There seem to be some issues like the low average grade of trees that makes it problematic to harvest commercially. It can be done, just making it "pay" is the tricky part. If you are a "hobby" logger / miller, then that changes things, you can spend the day pottering about and processing a couple of trees, and should have enough wood to build a chicken shed. For construction like that, no need to dry, just nail it up straight off the mill and let it dry in place. It's going to get slightly drier in your climate, but you will only be talking a couple of % lower moisture in the wood.

The Pinyon again doesn't seem to be a commercial species, because of it's shrubby growth, it's hard to find an actual "sawlog". If you do, it should behave like most other pines. The pitch might be an issue with the sawing, but that can usually be controlled with your blade lube. Some extra detergent, and turn up the flow to keep the blade clean of pitch build-up. Again, for farm buildings, nail it up off the mill. If you want to air dry first, I'd guess a couple of months in your climate.

The pine doesn't seem as durable as the Juniper, so I'd suggest using that for parts that are under cover. Although in your dry climate it should last much longer than pine does in our rainforest climate. The Juniper should also make good fence posts because of it's natural durability, and that's one of the traditional uses for it.

Good Luck
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ut_cottonwood

Ianab, thank you for your valuable feedback.  I'll have to upload some photos of the pinyon around here to my posts when I get around to sourcing a few logs.  They are generally bushy but when in competition for sunlight, like all trees, they can get quite a sizable vertical log before branching.

I appreciate the comment on air drying as well.  Hanging them up green would be ideal for me from a production standpoint so this is great news.

Darrel

it_cottonwood, welcome aboard!

I also live on the high desert, and love it!  I cut mostly Pondarosa but also cut quite a bit of western juniper and my favorite to cut is the juniper.   Juniper has some off the chart taper to it and it is very important to level the pith before making your first cut.  The slab pile grows almost as fast as the lumber pile.  Juniper is very labor intensive and in general difficult. Maybe that's why I like it so much. When I was a nurse, my favorite patients were the difficult ones.



j

Here on the high desert, you can air dry lumber to 6-8% moisture content, just make sure you make shade somehow for the top layers or you'll loose them.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

ut_cottonwood

Darrel, thank you for sharing the pictures and I'm happy to hear your feedback on Juniper.  Those are some sizable logs you have there.  I'll start researching methods to level the pith for these as I agree, they will have some serious taper.  What have you used the Juniper for project wise?


Chuck White

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, ut cottonwood!

Nice logs you have there, and congratulations on the new mill!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Darrel

ut_cottonwood, around these parts, 6x6 fence posts bring in the most cash.  Next summer, I plan to build a large cabin (small house) and I'm planning do do most of the interior with juniper starting with the floors and ending at the ceiling. I plan to use Pondarosa and/or lodge pole pine for accent.

Cut juniper oversized so that you will have room to straighten it after drying. Once dry it is quite stable, behaving nicely. Keep your stickers dead straight and put plenty of weight on top. In less than a year, you'll have nice dry lumber. No need to sterilize juniper, bugs won't eat it, especially dry.

I've used juniper for framing, farm tables and other furniture, flooring, juniper is good strong wood if you don't mind throwing a third of it on the burn pile.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Brad_bb

In general we say around here that it takes just as long to cut a short log as it does a long one, but you get a lot more out of a longer one.  It's basically true for diameter too (not exactly though).  In a smaller diameter log, you still need the same setup time, the same opening cuts, but sawing a few less passes.  Do I saw smaller logs, sure.  I saw whatever I have, but I am not a business.  If I were making a living I would be a lot more discriminatory.  For efficiency to maximize the amount of lumber you get for your time, you want to mill the largest and longest log your mill will handle without any special handling.  For example, having to do a lot of extra whittling with a chainsaw to get the butt flare cut down to fit on the mill.  For efficiency you not only want the largest your mill with easily handle, but the straightest and most defect free.  We can't always do that because these are trees, not manufactured cylinders. 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

ChugiakTinkerer

Unless you have some support equipment, you'll want to keep your log size on the low end.  I've got a HM130 that is way more sawmill than I need for logs that I can roll onto the bunks by hand.  A tractor or loader with forks would change that dramatically.  Or at least a winch to parbuckle the logs up a ramp to the cutting height. 
Woodland Mills HM130

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