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splitting a tractor

Started by grouch, August 25, 2017, 01:49:27 PM

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luvmexfood

Quote from: grouch on September 12, 2017, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: Ox on September 12, 2017, 10:17:41 AM
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



Quote from: Al_Smith on September 12, 2017, 06:58:07 PM
The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 12, 2017, 07:08:32 PM
grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.
Took one of those trips one time. Only about 20 ft though. Was going up a hill on an old International tractor dad had bought. I was about 16. Tractor wouldn't pull the hill so I clutched it and hit the brakes for a lower gear. Not a sign of a brake. Big hill but after about 20 ft backwards I had ground enough metal off the gears to get it in a lower gear and let the clutch out. Dad told the dealer he bought it off about it and the dealer offered him his money back. Told dad he was afraid I would get hurt on it. Dad told him he would think about it. Now the dealer had known me since I was around 8. He came and got the tractor anyway and wrote dad a check.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Al_Smith

The only good brakes on those old tractors were John Deere .They were ahead of the reduction and outside of the oil from the axles ..Ollies had good brakes but they were designed to run in oil ,woven lining .Old Cats had good brakes,you could spin them on a dime and get back 9 cents in change .Fords and Fergies had the worse brakes of any tractor ever made .--I know I own two of them ,the later .

luvmexfood

Grouch. Out of curiosity I went and looked at the service manual I have. It covers the 360, 460 and 510 series. Has 26 pages on the transmission and clutch. Covers the 6 speed (1 shift lever) and the 8 speed (2 shift levers). The two tractors we have are a 445 with the one clutch pedal for both PTO and transmission. The 510 has a lever to work the PTO clutch. Everything I have run across for the 510 also works for the 455. If it will help I can email you a copy in a couple of days. Have it as a PDF. Reminds me I need to back it up again. Had it on a jump drive but don't know where it is. Found it once on the net but never been able to find it again. It also covers both a 10" clutch and a 11" clutch.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

grouch

Thanks for the offer, luvmexfood.

I bought a printed service manual from the nearest FarmTrac dealer right after I got the tractor. After researching some mind-numbing, insane, twisted copyright crap, it was scanned and posted online: Service Manual Long 260 - 310 Series Tractor.
Find something to do that interests you.

Kbeitz

I had a ride myself years ago when a farmall jumped out of gear when going up a
steep hill. I had a load of fire wood on behind. The only thing that stopped me
was a big tree. No harm done. I bet I traveled backwards 100 feet.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

luvmexfood

Quote from: Kbeitz on September 13, 2017, 05:17:58 AM
I had a ride myself years ago when a farmall jumped out of gear when going up a
steep hill. I had a load of fire wood on behind. The only thing that stopped me
was a big tree. No harm done. I bet I traveled backwards 100 feet.
One never forgets rides like that.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

sandhills

Two of my neighbors (one now deceased) used to haul hay for people together with an A JD and a 60 JD.  We have a hill we call Kruse hill that's now a paved highway but back then just a dirt road and Dewey my late neighbor used to kick it out of gear going down the hill with the old underslung and hay stack behind.  One time the other guy was following with the pickup and clocked him at over 60 mph  :o.  They'd use the 60 to help pull the A up hills in bad road conditions then behind going down hill to help hold it back, one time they went a little to far uphill and when they reached the bottom the guy on the 60 was on the hood hugging the muffler and the narrow front of the A was on the seat of the 60  :D, I'm not joking or exaggerating.  Dewey always said he never new how they lived through those days.

grouch

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a farm tractor running 60 mph, much less be in the driver's seat.

It's not done 'til it runs. I'll be posting updates as this thing goes back together, until it can move out of the garage under its own power.

Spent 2 days getting the bolts torqued that hold the two halves together. 5 of them are hex socket head cap screws and 3 of those are in positions where a torque wrench head won't fit.

I used a digital luggage scale, a piece of thinwall electrical conduit with a loop of wire 12 inches from the end to hook the scale to, and a 10mm Allen (hex) wrench to torque those. The scale said it's only accurate when used vertically, but I tested it against the torque wrench and as long as you power it up while vertical, and wait for it to zero, it's fine at any angle.

One of the hex head cap screws was also in a bad position. I had to use an open end wrench on it for 1/6 of a turn at a time with the luggage scale hooked in the box end. The wrench was 8 inches from center of bolt to center of box end, so I had to pull 82.5 lbs to get the 55 ft-lbs of torque needed. Used a piece of wood in the thin steel handle of the scale -- it was not made to be friendly to fingers.

4 other bolts required a crowfoot wrench on the torque wrench. Out of 12 bolts, 2 were easily accessible to a torque wrench.

2 days for 12 bolts -- Anybody want to hire me to work on tractors by the hour?

(P.S. I did accomplish other stuff in those 2 days; it was just frustrating changing tooling from bolt to bolt and I had to get away from it often to keep from adjusting things with a sledge).
Find something to do that interests you.

Ox

We never torqued those bolts.  Good and tight was always good enough.  Just think - you get to retorque them in a week or so.  I don't ever remember any coming loose but it's good to check anyways.  Kinda like when you move the rear wheels on adjustable track tractors - you better be checking those hub bolts every day for at least a week - they always seemed to need more tightening.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Kbeitz

Quote from: Ox on September 16, 2017, 09:20:15 AM
We never torqued those bolts.  Good and tight was always good enough.  Just think - you get to retorque them in a week or so.  I don't ever remember any coming loose but it's good to check anyways.  Kinda like when you move the rear wheels on adjustable track tractors - you better be checking those hub bolts every day for at least a week - they always seemed to need more tightening.

On you tractor wheels and anything like that I take a copper hammer and pound
on them after I tighten them up You would be surprised how well that works.
You can always get a few more turn out of them. I think it settles the dirt under
the treads.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

sandhills

Grouch, you never know how many "projects" I may have going at any one time just so I can get away from the other  :D.

grouch

I do that, too, sandhills!  :D


There's no reason these bolts should have to be re-torqued. It's one flat surface against another, and I cleaned every thread so they'd run up by finger, first. I just wish they'd spent a bit more time designing the casting so you could get a wrench in there.  >:(
Find something to do that interests you.

Ox

Didn't you say some of those bolts were pretty loose when you began this project?  I can't remember fully...

I know I've found loose tranny bolts before on tractors.  It's why I mentioned a retorque just to save you mental anguish in the future.  :)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

I'm afraid the only way to prevent me having mental anguish in the future is to remove the mental. The trouble with that is, the patient doesn't know he's gotten relief.

You may be right about some of those bolts being loose before; I can't remember and haven't looked back through here to see. My guess is that the last person to pull this thing apart got fed up with trying to access the bolt heads to tighten 'em!
Find something to do that interests you.

grouch

Friday night, 2017-09-22, the tractor was able to move again under its own power and the clutch works. Ordeal started 2017-08-25 so I squeaked in under a month.

It's amazing how many little details had to be dealt with after putting the two halves back together. It was about as much as pulling, rebuilding, and replacing an engine in a car.


  • connect hard lines to power steering reservoir and pump
  • connect alternator top bracket and tension belt
  • connect hard lines to hydraulic pump
  • bolt fuel tank support brackets to bellhousing and transmission
  • bolt firewall to fuel tank support brackets
  • install pads for fuel tank
  • install fuel tank with steel strap
  • connect (3) fuel lines
  • connect ground and fuel gauge sender wires to fuel tank
  • install kill lever and knob
  • install throttle lever (custom bend because it's been rubbing the main PVC fuel line for years)
  • untangle the wiring harness and drape it over the fuel tank
  • install rear hood sheet metal
  • connect neutral safety switch
  • install key switch and starter switch
  • connect tach/hour meter drive cable to instrument panel
  • connect wiring harness to instrument panel and install panel
  • install rear light switch and harness
  • install steering wheel
  • install subframe (just 8 bolts but a pain to line up with floor jack and wood blocking)
  • place and tie hydraulic hoses for front end loader to subframe
  • install power steering hydraulic cylinder
  • fill power steering reservoir with 15w-40 oil (and discover the filter cap has a hairline crack that oozes)
  • fill transmission with trans/hyd. fluid
  • install seat
  • put the lift arms back on the rocker shafts 'cause I ain't working on that leak no mo' for a while
  • adjust clutch pedal free travel
  • connect negative battery cable
  • clear the area in case it won't clutch
  • crank and test
It worked. Still haven't tested the PTO clutch, though. Will savor the victory for a while first.
Find something to do that interests you.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Ox

This is why people who have never done any wrenching squeal when they see a repair bill.  They've never done it and so they don't understand just how much fiddling around there is. 

Glad you got her together and working again.  Don't you hate the butterflies when you first go to run it?
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

Ox,

I cleared everything front and rear before firing it up, just in case I couldn't clutch it or yank it out of gear.  :D
Find something to do that interests you.

sandhills

I know the feeling guys, glad it all worked out.

Randy88

Gee I showed up to the party just in time, fashionably late, but just in time for admiring the outcome and it only took me about an hour to read the whole thread.      Thanks for sharing your ordeal, done a lot of tractor splits over the years, for a multitude of reasons, but none went quite this smooth before.   




campwags

I need to replace the clutch in my Kioti DK65... but after reading all of this post... I will shop around for someone else to do it, or just trade it in on a new one.

Thanks for posting all of this.  This forum seems to have better content and info than some of the tractorbynet boards.   ???
Life is for Living, Loving and Laughing; Not Crying and Complaining!

TK 2000, Woodmaster 718, Kioti DK65s w/Farmi JL501, Kioti NX4510 and a Kubota KX 41-3 excavator, Japa firewood processor and an assortment of trailers, solar kiln and out buildings.

grouch

campwags,

I'd check the service manual. Likely your tractor is newer and doesn't have this 1950s - 1960s style PTO clutch. Several members have pointed out that newer tractors have a separate hydraulic system for the PTO. That removes considerable complication in replacing the clutch.

It still leaves all the stuff that has to be removed before and installed after splitting the tractor, changing the clutch, and putting the halves together, though. :D
Find something to do that interests you.

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