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splitting a tractor

Started by grouch, August 25, 2017, 01:49:27 PM

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grouch

Finally got that contrary clutch assembly started back on -- all 6 bolts are started and all 6 of those aggravating, dinky pushrods are still where they're supposed to be. I just hope everything is adjusted well enough.

Spent most of yesterday and some of last night trying to get those clutch release arms "coplanar" to the pressure plate. I don't have any true and flat surface big enough to bolt that thing to, so I just bolted it back-to-back with the old pressure plate + clutch cover using three 1/2-13 threaded rods.

I tightened each threaded rod in turn until the release arms started rising and the clutch plate was captured; tightening continued then until spacing was equal at each rod between the milled surface of the old cover and the new. Using three feeler gauges -- .003, .004 and .005 -- I think I got it the same at each rod. That doesn't guarantee those are coplanar because I have no way to test the flatness of either milled surface.

The only thing I could measure from, to check the release arms, was the center of the clutch plate. Those arms don't have a precision, milled or ground surface that contacts the release bearing; it looks like each was run past a belt or drum sander. I measured in pairs going around and around that thing until there's about .002 difference, max, between any two. That was tedious.

They started out different enough that you could see it. It's as good as I can get it, just hope it's good enough.


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grouch

Quote from: Crusarius on September 07, 2017, 06:25:08 PM
I still have a 92 saturn SL2. not a spec of rust anywhere on the body panels :)

Actually I don't think GM was scared I think the market was not ready for it. Same thing as the Aluminum bodied vehicles.

There are many opinions on that but I am all for aluminum. It really is a better material all around.

Aluminum has a shorter fatigue life than steel. You can't deform it for near as long without it cracking. For much of a car or truck, it would be great; some parts, not so good. (That stupid Giggling Monkeys commercial showing dropping jagged rocks or concrete to pierce an aluminum bed doesn't make me want one of their rust-o-matics).

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Ox

I guarantee you did a fine job on getting your clutch pack co planar, or whatever they call that.  It's flat and true all the way around from the fingers' perspective.  Right down to a thousandth.  If your old clutch didn't chatter or wobble around using it you'll be fine cause you used this non chattering piece to compare it to.  Your diligence with this is much more than I've ever done.  Nothing wrong with that - it's just something to compare your work to and make you feel better about it.

I think these old clutch systems just aren't that picky.  I used to just go by feel and sight and never had any problems on any of them.   Maybe I got lucky.  But I think it's just that they're not that picky.  You were much more careful than I ever was so I think you'll be just fine.

There is no way to adjust the clutch fingers through an inspection hole or plate?  Every tractor I've ever seen has some sort of way to get in there to do this maintenance without splitting it.  It would be strange if they built it without a way to adjust this.  Maybe after the initial setting like you did it's all done from the outside on the push rod?
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

Ox,

Thanks!

The play (at the pedal) is adjusted by the rod, but the initial setting of the clutch release levers is done on the bench. I just don't have the measurements for that universal stand the manual references, nor the height above its flat surface for those calibrating arms. It would be a real fight to adjust each release lever through the inspection port. It's hard enough to adjust the PTO clutch through there and those adjusters are close by the case and port as they come around.

This thing is eating up too many pretty days. I should be roofing, clearing for a shop addition or even sawing.

After getting it all bolted up and torqued to 55 ft-lbs, the release levers look to be way too high. All the drawings show them level at rest. Mine are poking out quite a bit. I measured and the release bearing's full travel is only about 1-1/8 inch. The tips of the release levers are about 2-1/8 above the clutch. I'm going to do some more measuring and pondering before pushing the halves back together. May have to work on something else for a day just to clear some frustration.
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luvmexfood

From the pictures you showed and description it looks like your tractor was one that was manufactured by Universal Tractor Company in Romania. Originally designed by Fiat and then manufactured by Universal. They were imported and sold in the US under their own name as well as Long, Oliver, White, Allis Chambers plus some others. We have two, both bought new. One is a Universal and the second is a Long.

Good tractors. I have bought a few parts such as alternators, starters and pumps off Flea Bay at half or less than some of the parts dealers wanted and they have worked good so far. Forty three years on the Universal and thirty five on the Long. Read quite a bit about what happened to Long and their demise. Basically they were done in by a corrupt foreign company that had purchased them.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

grouch

luvmexfood,

UTC was one of the names I forgot when trying to post the trail from Tarborough, NC to FarmTrac and Canada. Thanks.

This one has the Long 310 decals and some pieces have Romania cast into them. It has been mostly trouble-free for me. It doesn't get a lot of hours, but it has handled every load I've asked of it.
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grouch

Need to bring this up to date, getting too many photos piled up in the camera. :)


I know some folks think I exaggerate or hallucinate when telling about how fast things _can_ rust here.
This photo is timestamped: 2017:09:02 17:39:00


This photo is timestamped: 2017:09:03 18:43:18


We had several abnormally cool days and nights and then it changed suddenly to hot and humid about the middle of the morning. Every heavy piece of steel in the garage condensed moisture and rusted. That happens several times each spring and fall.




Rough measurements for the clutch alignment tool.


Found a piece of 1-3/8 cold rolled steel rod. The end has been center drilled but not faced off; that's just the bandsaw cut on the end.


Thought I'd better use the tailstock on this. Don't really know how to use a lathe, so I fake it.






1-3/8 inch diameter is a good fit for the main clutch. Had to turn it down for the PTO clutch and the flywheel.


That's the PTO clutch.
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grouch

Fiddling with adjusting the clutch release arms was tedious and time-consuming.


This is after all the fiddling. I used 3 of those 1/2-13 threaded rods to bolt the thing back-to-back with the old one. The adjusting was mostly by guess and by gosh, because I don't have the measurements Long used for their special tools.


Hanging in mid-air with the alignment tool and PTO clutch. The 3 little pushrods are showing just outside the edge of the clutch disk.


The whole thing finally holding itself in place -- no sling or strap needed. The little strings are there to keep the pressure plate from moving enough to allow the 3 longer pushrods to fall out. Again.
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grouch

Now it's up to date.


Note the clutch release lever poking 'way out there.


Straight edge shows the angle of those levers better.


Straight edge in the same position as above. End of tape measure against the milled face of the back of the engine.


The end of the clutch release lever peeking out from behind the straight edge. (Perspective makes the closer, out of focus lever appear as if it's lower).


Measuring from the face of the release bearing to the milled face of the transmission case that mates with the milled face on the back of the engine.


Cross section of clutch assembly. Note the angle of item 11, the clutch release lever -- pretty much parallel with the clutch disk.


Adjustment illustrations.

I've come to the conclusion that I'll have to readjust those clutch release levers, but won't have to pull the thing back off to do it.
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Crusarius

you have the same rust problem there as I do here.

Ox

I'm a little confused.  The manual had you pre-setting the fingers on the bench, right?  This measurement is correct the best you can get it, right?  Then you bolted the clutch/pressure plate assembly on to the flywheel going around and around tightening the mounting bolts a little at a time because it's all kind of spring loaded and you're compressing all the springs, right?  This forced the release fingers out further, right?  Are you absolutely sure you should be adjusting anything at this point?  It seems like the pre-loaded "spring tension" of the clutch is set up properly now (on the bench, to be sure all the fingers do their equal job at a pre-determined measurement from the shop manual) and the remaining slack will be taken out with the clutch pushrod.

Am I missing something here?

Your rusting problem is worse than here, I think.  You might better just spray salt water on everything!  What I do is mix up a spray bottle 50/50 with ATF and kerosene and shake it all up.  It's a great penetrating/protecting spray that's cheap cheap cheap compared to the other stuff for sale.  A quick mist spray on your exposed parts protects from flash rust and cleans off easy with paint thinner or even soap and water.  Usually I just wipe off excess and whatever's left burns off in the case of clutches or brakes, etc.  Mating surfaces for gasketing and such gets cleaned well with acetone or thinner.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

Ox,

The big problem and source of confusion is the lack of dimensions for that "universal stand", "spacers", and "calibration plate" in the service manual. Those determine where the tips of the clutch release levers rest when you get them all even and in the same plane as the surface against which the clutch bears. Without those dimensions, you can make those tips coplanar at any level above the clutch disk -- from barely clearing to sticking out about 6 inches. I guessed wrong 'on the bench'.

Look back at the photos (on the previous page) of the yardstick and tape measure. I removed the adjusting rod (pedal to release arm) and shoved the release bearing back as far as it wanted to go. It came to rest about 4-3/8 inches from the milled face of the transmission that mates to the back of the engine. The photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover shows the clutch release lever tips about 4-3/4 inches out from the milled face of the back of the engine. Put together that way, with no room to adjust the release bearing, it would be depressing the clutch release levers about 3/8 inch before you touch the pedal.

The cross section drawing of the clutch assembly shows the release levers apparently parallel with the surface of the clutch. Looking again at the photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover, if those release levers are adjusted to look straight, the tips end up about 4-1/8 to 4-3/16 inches from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine. That would put them roughly 0.125 to 0.1875 inches away from the face of the release bearing when the tractor is bolted back together.

I do need to confirm that I haven't pushed the release bearing back farther than the adjusting rod will allow, but I think it's ready to put back together now. It took some cobbling to be able to measure that coplanarity (while watching some high school football last night). Will get photos up today of that cobbling.
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grouch

Just confirmed that the adjusting rod will go back on with the release bearing pushed back as far as I have it.

There's a flat on each clutch release lever where the lock nut tightens down on the adjusting screw. For the rough setting of those levers, I just placed that aluminum yardstick on that flat and the tip of the lever, then measured from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine on each side to the yardstick. They became equal on each side at about 4-3/16 inches.

First attempt at making them coplanar involved a dial indicator on a magnetic base attached to the flat of the engine. It didn't work. Dial indicator wouldn't give two readings in a row that were the same.


Second attempt. This didn't work because those spring clamps let the micrometer wiggle. The framework made out of small bar clamps was ok.


Third attempt worked. Same framework as above, but a long-nosed hemostat replaced one of the spring clamps (silvery nose showing lower right in photo). I numbered the release levers because I thought it would take a few times around to get them right.


Lever number 2.


And number 3. Supposed to be within 0.004 of each other and I'm a little over that, but it's good enough. This was the 2nd time around, just to be sure, and they measured the same as the first time around.


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Ox

I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

Quote from: Ox on September 10, 2017, 11:02:31 AM
I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.

I'm hoping I got it by the short ones. Took me the length of 2 football games (actually listened to and watched parts of 6 games; 3 in 1 time slot and 3 in the time slot after that :) ), but that sucker is now unsplit! It stalled out for an hour or more as the main clutch reached the shaft, but finally came together. It is now no longer dependent on the hoist, floor jack and jack stands. Photos to follow.
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grouch

It's now reunited with itself.


Tried using a digital level / angle gauge, just to soothe the nerves.


Close. A touch down on both hoist and floor jack brought 'em both to 0. That's not really significant, considering the gentle rolling hills of my garage floor.


The shaft is pretty well centered in spite of being out of focus.


It is whipped at this point. There is a stubby alignment dowel on each side and they are both engaged by the time of this photo.

The only stall was when the main shaft contacted the main clutch. The splines were not quite aligned. I was using a come-along attached to the front axle of the floor jack to ease the front half of the tractor back to the back half. When that clutch met the shaft, it stopped being very easy to pull. A gentle tug on the come-along only caused the two halves to buck upwards. Wiggling or shaking (gently, so as not to get any surprises) did no good.

I measured the gap all around and tried using C-clamps where it measured wider, but that didn't help. It took a dental mirror and flashlight to see the problem. A soft brass rod and a few taps to make the main shaft turn half a spline and it all came together easy, then.


View of the release bearing and release levers through the inspection port. The remaining gap between the tractor halves is barely visible in the darkness on the right in the photo.


About half that gap will disappear as the bolts pull the tractor back together.


That's about how much more it has to travel to close the gap between engine and transmission.


There's the tool that was essential in getting the splines lined up with the clutch for the final closure. Had to hold it at the very end and shine an LED flashlight through the hole, then substitute the brass rod for the mirror, tap a tooth, switch to mirror, repeat until aligned.


Gap closed.


Bolts just snugged, not torqued.


No gap anywhere around.

Whew! There's a first for me and I'm not really interested in ever having to split a second.
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Kbeitz

Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Al_Smith

What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

grouch

Quote from: Kbeitz on September 10, 2017, 09:29:03 PM
Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.

Your arms are stretched from hauling all that stuff from your 'junk'yard. I can't reach around behind the tractor while peering through that little inspection port on the side of the transmission, and the PTO input shaft wasn't a problem because it slid in on the first try.

The PTO shift lever has 3 selections: 1. Synchronized -- the PTO output shaft is driven by the bevel gear in the differential; 2. Neutral -- the PTO output shaft is not driven by anything on the tractor; 3. Independent -- the PTO output shaft is driven directly by the engine through the PTO clutch and PTO input shaft.

Using vise grips on the PTO output shaft:
1. Synchronized -- you're trying to move the tractor's back half and the engine
2. Neutral -- won't do a thing to align anything
3. Independent -- would try to turn the engine, which in this case would also be turning the main shaft just by the friction of the clutch against that shaft. You could shift the gearbox into any gear to use the rear wheels to hold the main shaft still, but the PTO is still trying to turn the engine along with the 2 clutches.

It was easier to just tap on the splines with the brass rod through the inspection port to rotate the main shaft half a spline.
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grouch

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 11, 2017, 05:42:06 AM
What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

The owner's manual actually shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO. This whole 2-stage clutch just feels primitive and crude, to me.
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Ox

The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

There was one year Case made their DC tractors with live PTO and live hydraulics.  I think it was 1954 only.  I had one here I got running again from a pile of rust.  The main foot clutch lived in engine oil and lasted forever.  The PTO was from a pump and over center handle in front of the PTO shaft and the pump was driven all the time with a shaft from the engine.  Live hydraulic was from a pump on the engine I think, but I'm not sure.  Amazing technology for the time and not well known.  Nothing different under the sun, and started in 54 as far as I can tell.  I think Oliver was right there side by side with Case at this time as well.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Al_Smith

The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Peter Drouin

grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

grouch

Quote from: Ox on September 12, 2017, 10:17:41 AM
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



Quote from: Al_Smith on September 12, 2017, 06:58:07 PM
The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 12, 2017, 07:08:32 PM
grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.
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Al_Smith

They make an oil seal for Fords and Fergusons that have the same leaky problem .You have to grease the bearings then because it blocks the oil spinning down the axle shaft that  lubes them .They work about half the time .

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