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Author Topic: splitting a tractor  (Read 2859 times)

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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2017, 09:26:24 am »
I'm a little confused.  The manual had you pre-setting the fingers on the bench, right?  This measurement is correct the best you can get it, right?  Then you bolted the clutch/pressure plate assembly on to the flywheel going around and around tightening the mounting bolts a little at a time because it's all kind of spring loaded and you're compressing all the springs, right?  This forced the release fingers out further, right?  Are you absolutely sure you should be adjusting anything at this point?  It seems like the pre-loaded "spring tension" of the clutch is set up properly now (on the bench, to be sure all the fingers do their equal job at a pre-determined measurement from the shop manual) and the remaining slack will be taken out with the clutch pushrod.

Am I missing something here?

Your rusting problem is worse than here, I think.  You might better just spray salt water on everything!  What I do is mix up a spray bottle 50/50 with ATF and kerosene and shake it all up.  It's a great penetrating/protecting spray that's cheap cheap cheap compared to the other stuff for sale.  A quick mist spray on your exposed parts protects from flash rust and cleans off easy with paint thinner or even soap and water.  Usually I just wipe off excess and whatever's left burns off in the case of clutches or brakes, etc.  Mating surfaces for gasketing and such gets cleaned well with acetone or thinner.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2017, 03:54:04 pm »
Ox,

The big problem and source of confusion is the lack of dimensions for that "universal stand", "spacers", and "calibration plate" in the service manual. Those determine where the tips of the clutch release levers rest when you get them all even and in the same plane as the surface against which the clutch bears. Without those dimensions, you can make those tips coplanar at any level above the clutch disk -- from barely clearing to sticking out about 6 inches. I guessed wrong 'on the bench'.

Look back at the photos (on the previous page) of the yardstick and tape measure. I removed the adjusting rod (pedal to release arm) and shoved the release bearing back as far as it wanted to go. It came to rest about 4-3/8 inches from the milled face of the transmission that mates to the back of the engine. The photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover shows the clutch release lever tips about 4-3/4 inches out from the milled face of the back of the engine. Put together that way, with no room to adjust the release bearing, it would be depressing the clutch release levers about 3/8 inch before you touch the pedal.

The cross section drawing of the clutch assembly shows the release levers apparently parallel with the surface of the clutch. Looking again at the photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover, if those release levers are adjusted to look straight, the tips end up about 4-1/8 to 4-3/16 inches from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine. That would put them roughly 0.125 to 0.1875 inches away from the face of the release bearing when the tractor is bolted back together.

I do need to confirm that I haven't pushed the release bearing back farther than the adjusting rod will allow, but I think it's ready to put back together now. It took some cobbling to be able to measure that coplanarity (while watching some high school football last night). Will get photos up today of that cobbling.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2017, 04:38:17 pm »
Just confirmed that the adjusting rod will go back on with the release bearing pushed back as far as I have it.

There's a flat on each clutch release lever where the lock nut tightens down on the adjusting screw. For the rough setting of those levers, I just placed that aluminum yardstick on that flat and the tip of the lever, then measured from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine on each side to the yardstick. They became equal on each side at about 4-3/16 inches.

First attempt at making them coplanar involved a dial indicator on a magnetic base attached to the flat of the engine. It didn't work. Dial indicator wouldn't give two readings in a row that were the same.


Second attempt. This didn't work because those spring clamps let the micrometer wiggle. The framework made out of small bar clamps was ok.


Third attempt worked. Same framework as above, but a long-nosed hemostat replaced one of the spring clamps (silvery nose showing lower right in photo). I numbered the release levers because I thought it would take a few times around to get them right.


Lever number 2.


And number 3. Supposed to be within 0.004 of each other and I'm a little over that, but it's good enough. This was the 2nd time around, just to be sure, and they measured the same as the first time around.



Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2017, 11:02:31 am »
I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2017, 04:13:40 pm »
I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.

I'm hoping I got it by the short ones. Took me the length of 2 football games (actually listened to and watched parts of 6 games; 3 in 1 time slot and 3 in the time slot after that :) ), but that sucker is now unsplit! It stalled out for an hour or more as the main clutch reached the shaft, but finally came together. It is now no longer dependent on the hoist, floor jack and jack stands. Photos to follow.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2017, 06:11:20 pm »
It's now reunited with itself.


Tried using a digital level / angle gauge, just to soothe the nerves.


Close. A touch down on both hoist and floor jack brought 'em both to 0. That's not really significant, considering the gentle rolling hills of my garage floor.


The shaft is pretty well centered in spite of being out of focus.


It is whipped at this point. There is a stubby alignment dowel on each side and they are both engaged by the time of this photo.

The only stall was when the main shaft contacted the main clutch. The splines were not quite aligned. I was using a come-along attached to the front axle of the floor jack to ease the front half of the tractor back to the back half. When that clutch met the shaft, it stopped being very easy to pull. A gentle tug on the come-along only caused the two halves to buck upwards. Wiggling or shaking (gently, so as not to get any surprises) did no good.

I measured the gap all around and tried using C-clamps where it measured wider, but that didn't help. It took a dental mirror and flashlight to see the problem. A soft brass rod and a few taps to make the main shaft turn half a spline and it all came together easy, then.


View of the release bearing and release levers through the inspection port. The remaining gap between the tractor halves is barely visible in the darkness on the right in the photo.


About half that gap will disappear as the bolts pull the tractor back together.


That's about how much more it has to travel to close the gap between engine and transmission.


There's the tool that was essential in getting the splines lined up with the clutch for the final closure. Had to hold it at the very end and shine an LED flashlight through the hole, then substitute the brass rod for the mirror, tap a tooth, switch to mirror, repeat until aligned.


Gap closed.


Bolts just snugged, not torqued.


No gap anywhere around.

Whew! There's a first for me and I'm not really interested in ever having to split a second.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2017, 09:29:03 pm »
Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2017, 05:42:06 am »
What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2017, 04:52:13 pm »
Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.

Your arms are stretched from hauling all that stuff from your 'junk'yard. I can't reach around behind the tractor while peering through that little inspection port on the side of the transmission, and the PTO input shaft wasn't a problem because it slid in on the first try.

The PTO shift lever has 3 selections: 1. Synchronized -- the PTO output shaft is driven by the bevel gear in the differential; 2. Neutral -- the PTO output shaft is not driven by anything on the tractor; 3. Independent -- the PTO output shaft is driven directly by the engine through the PTO clutch and PTO input shaft.

Using vise grips on the PTO output shaft:
1. Synchronized -- you're trying to move the tractor's back half and the engine
2. Neutral -- won't do a thing to align anything
3. Independent -- would try to turn the engine, which in this case would also be turning the main shaft just by the friction of the clutch against that shaft. You could shift the gearbox into any gear to use the rear wheels to hold the main shaft still, but the PTO is still trying to turn the engine along with the 2 clutches.

It was easier to just tap on the splines with the brass rod through the inspection port to rotate the main shaft half a spline.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2017, 04:54:48 pm »
What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

The owner's manual actually shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO. This whole 2-stage clutch just feels primitive and crude, to me.

Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2017, 10:17:41 am »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

There was one year Case made their DC tractors with live PTO and live hydraulics.  I think it was 1954 only.  I had one here I got running again from a pile of rust.  The main foot clutch lived in engine oil and lasted forever.  The PTO was from a pump and over center handle in front of the PTO shaft and the pump was driven all the time with a shaft from the engine.  Live hydraulic was from a pump on the engine I think, but I'm not sure.  Amazing technology for the time and not well known.  Nothing different under the sun, and started in 54 as far as I can tell.  I think Oliver was right there side by side with Case at this time as well.
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2017, 06:58:07 pm »
The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2017, 07:08:32 pm »
grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2017, 07:43:37 pm »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2017, 08:31:40 pm »
They make an oil seal for Fords and Fergusons that have the same leaky problem .You have to grease the bearings then because it blocks the oil spinning down the axle shaft that  lubes them .They work about half the time .

Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2017, 10:23:08 pm »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.
Took one of those trips one time. Only about 20 ft though. Was going up a hill on an old International tractor dad had bought. I was about 16. Tractor wouldn't pull the hill so I clutched it and hit the brakes for a lower gear. Not a sign of a brake. Big hill but after about 20 ft backwards I had ground enough metal off the gears to get it in a lower gear and let the clutch out. Dad told the dealer he bought it off about it and the dealer offered him his money back. Told dad he was afraid I would get hurt on it. Dad told him he would think about it. Now the dealer had known me since I was around 8. He came and got the tractor anyway and wrote dad a check.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 10:40:25 pm »
The only good brakes on those old tractors were John Deere .They were ahead of the reduction and outside of the oil from the axles ..Ollies had good brakes but they were designed to run in oil ,woven lining .Old Cats had good brakes,you could spin them on a dime and get back 9 cents in change .Fords and Fergies had the worse brakes of any tractor ever made .--I know I own two of them ,the later .

Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 11:01:03 pm »
Grouch. Out of curiosity I went and looked at the service manual I have. It covers the 360, 460 and 510 series. Has 26 pages on the transmission and clutch. Covers the 6 speed (1 shift lever) and the 8 speed (2 shift levers). The two tractors we have are a 445 with the one clutch pedal for both PTO and transmission. The 510 has a lever to work the PTO clutch. Everything I have run across for the 510 also works for the 455. If it will help I can email you a copy in a couple of days. Have it as a PDF. Reminds me I need to back it up again. Had it on a jump drive but don't know where it is. Found it once on the net but never been able to find it again. It also covers both a 10" clutch and a 11" clutch.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 11:17:02 pm »
Thanks for the offer, luvmexfood.

I bought a printed service manual from the nearest FarmTrac dealer right after I got the tractor. After researching some mind-numbing, insane, twisted copyright crap, it was scanned and posted online: Service Manual Long 260 - 310 Series Tractor.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2017, 05:17:58 am »
I had a ride myself years ago when a farmall jumped out of gear when going up a
steep hill. I had a load of fire wood on behind. The only thing that stopped me
was a big tree. No harm done. I bet I traveled backwards 100 feet.
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And now a saw mill
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