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Author Topic: splitting a tractor  (Read 3558 times)

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Offline grouch

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splitting a tractor
« on: August 25, 2017, 01:49:27 pm »
I'm about to split my tractor to replace the clutches and pressure plate and I've never done this before. Been using the Forestry Forum to procrastinate all week but still managed to arrive at the point of finally unbolting the halves and pulling it apart. Still putting that final step off.

Anybody got any last minute tips, advice, suggestions? If this causes the world to crack and spin into the sun, do you want it on your conscience that you knew something and didn't speak up?

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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 02:22:56 pm »
I bolt a 4 ft long channel under the front and put my dollies on the channel.
This keeps it from tipping over. That's one thing you don't want to happen.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 02:40:40 pm »
I've had visions of each end crashing to the floor after I unbolt. The service manual makes no mention of jackstands or anything like that. Just placing it on "a shop stand" after rolling the front out. I'm going to place jackstands under each half, just in case.

I'll check my metal stash for something suitable.

Thanks Kbeitz.
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 03:08:18 pm »
I have a good set of splitting stands, use brace iron going from rear of engine down to the front, the rear half isn't quite so tippsy, ours has a 3 wheeled dolly (adjustable) to set under the draw bar.  With 2 JD 4010s one JD 4020 a 4840, an IH1486 and a few more I get plenty of practice  ::).  It's really not that bad if you have a nice hard and level surface to work with, I can do a 4010 or 20 by myself in a couple hours if it doesn't have a cab on it, you'll be fine  :).Clear as mud, right?  :D

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2017, 03:29:37 pm »
Under the draw bar? So yours tries to tip backwards?

This one splits between engine and transmission. The rear will try to tip forward and the front will try to drive the engine into the concrete. I have a shop crane reaching over the rear end to a lifting sling under the transmission and a hydraulic floor jack under the cast iron oil pan. Still not comfortable with it.

No place to bolt channel, I-beam or anything else under the front half.

I almost forgot to wedge the front axle. That would test pucker power, for sure. Now I'm down to the final step.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 04:05:17 pm »
5 of 5 socket head cap screws out -- none of them tight, only snug. 3 of 4 hex head cap screws were tight, 4th was just snug. This thing has been apart before. 2 of the hex heads are still in waiting for me to get up nerve. There's a hairline crack in the grease and grime for the top half and the bottom half is still tight, so I must have one or both ends lifted a bit too much.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 04:46:35 pm »
The tractor is split and I'm still intact so that's a victory, right?

 8)

Thanks Kbeitz and sandhills for the encouragement. It _did_ help. There are so many things I depend on that tractor for. It's not like yanking parts off a car; if that goes completely messed up, so what, you get another just like it.

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Offline paul case

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 04:58:04 pm »
I guess I am late but here is how my dad and I do it. Find  a place on the back of the motor or frame and bolt on some heavy (2x2x1/4'') on pointing down and brace it to the front of the tractor frame or motor.  We weld on one cross member high enough to get under it with a roller jack. Sometimes we remove the foot from the jack and weld a bolt to the frame to go in the hole on the lift point of the jack.We drive wood wedges in the front axle swivel so it dont tip over. Put a bottle jack under the clutch housing to hold it up and block them back tires.

PC
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Offline tree-farmer

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2017, 05:48:01 pm »
 smiley_clapping
Now I know who to call.....
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2017, 06:22:46 pm »
Wedges so the front axle can't pivot. Stationary stands under the motor,rolling stands/heavy floor jack under the back half. Once everything is disconnected roll the back half away from the motor.

Did one of my 100hp cab tractors by myself last summer, had it stripped and flywheel at the machine shop within about 5 or 6 hours. Reassembly is a little harder because you have to get everything lined up as you roll the back end forwards but not too bad.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 07:05:07 pm »
I knew there were FF members who'd done this before!

paul case:
Better late than never. All places to bolt something onto are on the half with the transmission. Naturally, it was the engine half that worried me most.

smiley_clapping
Now I know who to call.....

Hmm. I charge by the hour. Think I started this about the first of the week. ;)

Wedges so the front axle can't pivot. Stationary stands under the motor,rolling stands/heavy floor jack under the back half. Once everything is disconnected roll the back half away from the motor.

Those wedges almost didn't get placed!
For the other, it figures you'd go about it with the opposite end rolling; you with your frozen summer.  :D


It is a BIG relief having that sucker apart. This particular model was built with one of  two different pressure plates and the only way to tell which one it takes is to look at the flywheel. Now I can order the replacement parts.

First the PTO clutch wouldn't disengage and then it got to the point the main clutch would sometimes disengage. I tried all adjustments, a can of brake cleaner and half a can of WD40 and all that managed to do was get it to disengage long enough to get the backhoe and front loader off and then get in the garage. The pressure plate looks a little lopsided because one of the three release arms stays depressed.


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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 08:24:35 pm »
Trouble with rolling the front half forward is that it increases your chances of the wedges getting bumped and the engine tipping, or if the wheels are turned just a little it makes it hard to line back up. Also rolling the back is easy because the big tires are easy to roll.

I've probably done a couple dozen different tractors over the years. Sometimes you have to do double or triple splits to get to the problem....

Offline paul case

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2017, 08:21:23 am »
Dad and I split his 970 case a few years back and it had no bolt holes on the clutch end of the motor that we could bolt the stand to. We built our stand to go up beside the motor and welded a cross member against the bottom of the oil pan and made set screw/bolts with nuts welded to the bracket to tighten against the motor block to hold it steady.

I have done it either way and found I prefer moving the front away from the rear. I have never had my wedges wiggle out of the axle pivot. I just have less trouble moving the lighter piece. Many or most times we do it outside as to not tie up the whole shop(mine has 1 bay) to split a tractor. We usually throw down a piece of 1/8'' thick metal to foll the jack on.

Grouch,
It may be helpful to someone else if you put the make and model of your tractor on here somewhere.

PC
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2017, 09:10:06 am »
Dad and I split his 970 case a few years back and it had no bolt holes on the clutch end of the motor that we could bolt the stand to. We built our stand to go up beside the motor and welded a cross member against the bottom of the oil pan and made set screw/bolts with nuts welded to the bracket to tighten against the motor block to hold it steady.

That would work fine in this case by putting the crossmember in the handy depression just to the rear of the oil pan.  The oil pan itself is now blocked by a chunk of 2x6 and the floor jack.

Quote
I have done it either way and found I prefer moving the front away from the rear. I have never had my wedges wiggle out of the axle pivot. I just have less trouble moving the lighter piece. Many or most times we do it outside as to not tie up the whole shop(mine has 1 bay) to split a tractor. We usually throw down a piece of 1/8'' thick metal to foll the jack on.

I'm paranoid so I put wedges above and below the front axle. Too bad I didn't think of putting down a better rolling surface. Had to convince that jack to roll on the cardboard I put down to soak up oil and hydraulic fluid spills.  :(

Quote
Grouch,
It may be helpful to someone else if you put the make and model of your tractor on here somewhere.

PC

 ;D See the opening post -- has a link to the relevant page of the service manual and from there you can see the full factory service manual. Public domain, best I could determine.
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 09:45:05 am »
Whenever we split a tractor we replaced the main oil seals in both halves while we're in there.  Nothing worse than having to split a tractor AGAIN for a $10 seal.  It's the worst.  Don't ask me how I know.  Also, I don't know how thrifty you are, but we would always get a complete clutch kit - pressure plate, clutch disc (or discs) and throw out bearing.  The peace of mind is worth it in the very least.

I once forgot to wedge the front axle on an Allis Chalmers D19 when I split it.  It sure was a quick slam over to the pivot stop!  I was lucky that it didn't fall off the blocks and jack.

The professional tractor shop down the road from me has custom made welded steel stands made from channel and angle like the other guys above talked about.  There's quite a few hanging up out of the way 16 feet or so up by the rafters in his shop.  Kuhn's Equipment Repair.  The rears of the split tractors are simply blocked up and rolled back like the others guys have already said as well.

As long as nothing changes and the jacks don't sink that tractor will roll right back together no problems.  Only thing that might stop you a little is the teeth alignment on the shafts being a little off with the new clutch (if it happens).  A little twist of the input shaft to tranny (in neutral) takes care of that and back together it goes!
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2017, 10:47:09 am »
Good call forgot to mention replace the crank seal on the motor, and the input shaft seal on the trans. Few years ago I did a 100hp mfwd cab loader tractor in a hurry to get back to the hay field and only did the clutch then about 6 months later the front seal on the trans started leaking, so apart it had to come again.....

Also if the motor has any freeze or soft plugs in the back of the block or head that are covered when the tractor is together replace them now. Fords 4 and 6 cyl tractors have one or two that are covered by the trans and they often start leaking requiring a split.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2017, 12:13:53 pm »
Forgot all about seals and release bearing when I ordered.

Thanks Ox and chevytaHOE5674.

I'm in sticker shock right now. Ox, I did order the whole shebang -- pressure plate with main clutch and PTO clutch -- over $750 with shipping. Credit card didn't melt or explode, so maybe it'll be ok.
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2017, 01:11:01 pm »
Try this again, every time I lose the page.  The back half of my stands has 2 "cradles" that are adjustable, one holds the front of the transmission the back is against the drawbar, all 3 wheels are adjustable also up/down.  Hope that makes it at least a little clearer than mud  ;).  I agree totally with Ox and others, while you're in there do it all, I split a 4010 this last winter, now have to take the cab off and split it further back to put the input shaft in, google can be your friend I paid 286 for the shaft alone, JD wanted 680 go figure.  PS I bet they came from the same place  ::).

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2017, 02:15:36 pm »
sandhills:
Ok, now I can imagine how that stand works. That should be good and stable. Wouldn't happen to have any pictures would you?

I checked several places before ordering. The worst was over twice as high. The only cheaper ones were for rebuilt and required sending that heavy core to them.

Best I can tell, only Sparex is making replacement parts for Long tractors now.
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2017, 03:57:39 pm »
If it's agriculture, marine or forestry it's always 4 times as much.  $750 is a travesty and I feel bad for you having to swallow that one...  as they say it'll only hurt for a little while and if you're dependent on your machine like you've said before it's pretty much a necessity. 

An old timer said once:  If it's got tires, (something that rhymes with bits but starts with a t) or a transom it's gonna be expensive.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2017, 12:57:50 pm »
Pressure plate and clutches came in yesterday. UPS man slid it to the back of the truck and said, "Says it weighs 82 lbs. Need help carrying that?" Back of the truck was just the right height for me to tip it up on end and hug it without bending over.

Package has the red up arrows and that broken wine glass emblem for "Fragile". I thought that was goofy until I opened the box. It was well packed with the PTO clutch disk on top of the heavy pressure plate, main clutch and clutch cover. There was a distinct possibility of damaging that PTO clutch if the box were tossed on its top, in spite of good packaging.

Now I just have to come up with a substitute for the clutch alignment tool in the manual.
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 01:07:45 pm »
Sounds like its a 2 stage clutch? One for the pto other for the trans? If so those can be a real bugger to line up.

Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2017, 02:03:48 pm »
You'll need a *DanG good substitute. A 2 stage clutch can be a PITA even with the proper alignment tool.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2017, 03:17:01 pm »

Not what I'd expect to see on a box of tractor parts.




There was about a half inch of cardboard on top of that PTO clutch -- two new but flattened boxes, one a 9 x 9 x 9 and one 7 x 7 x 7.


Nearly as old as me, but I never heard of 'em before.








That gray part is the center of the main clutch.
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Offline Larry

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2017, 03:23:13 pm »
Now I just have to come up with a substitute for the clutch alignment tool in the manual.

I've turned several on the wood lathe out of osage orange.  Takes longer figuring out the dimensions than it does turning the tool.
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2017, 03:27:49 pm »
Cheap sonsuguns.  They should have included the clutch alignment tool with the kit.  It IS a kit after all.  I'd be calling them and asking what gives.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 03:31:29 pm »
I'm going to try just taking measurements of the input shaft and turning an alignment tool, either wood as Larry suggests, or steel like I did for a VW.

Is it necessary to align the splines of both clutches with each other? The PTO shaft and transmission shaft turn independently.
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 03:33:34 pm »
If you don't you won't get the tranny to slide back all the way.  You'll likely have to turn the shafts or clutch to get the splines to line up.  I think you could engage the PTO and turn its shaft to make the input shafts turn to help get everything to line up.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2017, 03:53:00 pm »
I've got overhead rails in my shop so splitting for me is relatively easy .
A pilot shaft is relatively easy to make .I've used wood,metal they both work .

Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2017, 04:55:17 pm »
It can be done without but sure is easier with an alignment tool, as ox stated you will have to turn the pto a bit to get everything in line.  I'd check with any local mechanics and see if they'd let you borrow one they may have first, a lot of them will just keep a stub shaft on hand for this, most important IMO is making sure the two halves are level with one another.  I'm sorry I don't have pictures of my stands and the only camera I figured out how to hook up to this computer has been broke for a few years, we got a new digital one last year and all the pics come out blurry, could be the operator error thingy  ::).

Offline Raider Bill

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2017, 04:59:51 pm »
I've used a dowel wrapped with electrical tape to the proper diameter before. Never did a 2 stage like this though.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2017, 05:56:18 pm »
Cheap sonsuguns.  They should have included the clutch alignment tool with the kit.  It IS a kit after all.  I'd be calling them and asking what gives.

I almost started yellin' at 'em. There are 6 little pins -- 3 short, 3 long -- that the various levers push against to compress the springs and release each clutch. The old ones are pretty cruddy looking. Finally found a wad of bright green tape tucked in the corner of the packaging (NW corner of the box in the 3rd photo above) that had the 6 new pins in it.

Will do some cleaning before trying to make an alignment tool.

There is a small inspection plate on the side of the transmission that may allow me to reach in to turn the outer shaft. The PTO shaft runs through the center of that, so I'd have to reach behind the tractor to turn it.


Right now I have that $750 chunk hanging from a $5 ratchet strap about 3.5 feet off the floor over the place where it's gonna go. Ain't I the jeenyus.
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Offline paul case

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2017, 05:59:16 pm »
I've used a dowel wrapped with electrical tape to the proper diameter before. Never did a 2 stage like this though.

I have done this with a 1/2''  socket extension, and it works better than you would think.

It turns out that Raider Bill is the jeenyus!

PC
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2017, 06:19:10 pm »
Good time to bring this up to date with photos.

Y'all just can't know how much I appreciate the tips, tales, suggestions and encouragement. Thanks a bunch!

Photos:


This is what I was looking at when I started this thread. Seat's off, but that's about it.


Fuel shutoff, fuel line to pump, and 3 lines for the power steering, all in the way.


Instrument panel coming out along with the usual mouse nest. No eviction notice given.


Fuel tank in center, sexy exhaust to the left, and sexier walnut shift knob on the right.


Wiring not as big a mess as it looks.


Two fuel return lines that had to come off.


Under all that stuff, 2 electrical connections to the fuel gauge sender.


Custom sling rigging for removing the fuel tank with maybe 5 gallons left in it.


First glimpse under the fuel tank. 3 empty holes.


4 big banjo fittings for the power steering. I hate banjo fittings.


Throttle and kill linkages.


Hydraulic lift pressure and return lines removed from hydraulic pump.


Power steering pump, right side of engine. Hard line goes back to one of those big banjo fittings.


Power steering reservoir, left side of engine. Hard line goes back to one of those big banjo fittings.
Manual didn't mention these two hard lines hugging the engine at all. It just told about removing the drag link.


I chose to leave the big banjos alone and disconnect this one.


And the one at the power steering pump.


There's the first view of the split, when I came running back in to post about it somewhere back on page 1, I think.


The old clutch cover, pressure plates, and clutch disks.


View from other side, with flash.




Shakey-looking rigging. Don't stand too close.

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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 08:51:30 pm »
Would that happen to be a Ford Dextra per chance ?

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2017, 09:03:33 pm »
IIRC its a Long 310 tractor...

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2017, 09:37:54 pm »
Would that happen to be a Ford Dextra per chance ?

See:

IIRC its a Long 310 tractor...

Also, Service manual for Long 260 - 310 Series

It was a licensed copy of a Ford 2000 or 3000. The Ford had a 3 cylinder diesel and this has a 2 cylinder. Long started out in Tarborough, NC, then it went to Romania, then became FarmTrac in Canada, I think, now ... I dunno. The trail got too confusing for me.
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Offline GRANITEstateMP

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2017, 04:49:47 pm »
Wish I could find me a Ford3000, that would run my firewood processor great!  We got a FORD7000 at the farm.  She's a 76', runs like a champ.  Pulls the mixer wagon all summer long (winter rig has a cab!).
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Offline woodmaker

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2017, 09:54:15 pm »
grouch,I did this job only one time,on a B-414 international. Your photos bring back how much of a P.I.T.A. it was.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2017, 12:48:18 pm »
grouch,I did this job only one time,on a B-414 international. Your photos bring back how much of a P.I.T.A. it was.

Glad to help bring that back.  :D

I've got most of the area scrubbed up; somebody put some kind of gasket sealer on it where the engine and transmission come together. It's stubborn.

Tried cobbling up an alignment shaft from things laying around and almost had it made from various plastic plumbing fittings and electrical conduit, but couldn't find anything suitable to fit the center of the flywheel. I'm turning a piece of steel rod down to fit and will go from there.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2017, 06:06:24 pm »
I did a Ford Dextra a long time ago for a neighbor .As I recall the double clutch came in aligned already .The job wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be .
Actually the clutch was good but he had a seal leaking,can't remember if it was on the engine or transmission .That was worse  than the clutch which he figured while it was split might as well get-er-done .

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2017, 04:03:17 pm »
Had a little setback today. I was indulging in some wishful thinking and just about had the clutch, etc., in place and ready to bolt up. The wishful thinking was that it came already "adjusted for planeness" as in Fig. B.1/9 on this page. As I was trying to get one of the 6 little push rods in place, I noticed one lock nut (B2 in that linked illustration) was loose. All 3 lock nuts were easy to spin by finger, so it's not likely that thing came already adjusted.

I'll have to pull it back out and rig up a "universal stand" to make that adjustment.
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2017, 10:25:59 am »
That sucks.  But be grateful you thought of it now and not after you had it all back together again and running it and finding out the clutch kept getting worse and worse...  now that would really suck.

Here's hoping it all goes easy and uneventful from here on out.

If it's any consolation I'm making new brake lines for a 23 year old Cadillac car that has proportioning valves for each rear brake and basically zero room to work under there.  I believe they put in the lines before they put in the rear subframe.  Not my easiest or favoritist...
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 12:19:03 pm »
Thanks Ox.

On those brake lines -- if you're making them instead of buying pre-made, I strongly suggest you get nickel-copper line so it never rusts again.
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2017, 12:48:11 pm »
If it helps any I put one "set" clutch in without checking clearances, once, I'll never make that mistake again, glad you caught it in time.  Not sure about Ford but JD has a tool to set the fingers, you never know who did it at the factory or if was a Saturday morning/Monday morning type job.

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2017, 09:55:10 am »
Thanks Ox.

On those brake lines -- if you're making them instead of buying pre-made, I strongly suggest you get nickel-copper line so it never rusts again.
Yep - I've been using copper nickel for around 5 years now.  Everything that needs brake lines gets it.  We have real bad rusting problems from all the salt all winter long here.  Cars don't last long here without constant attention and maintenance.  The only reason this Caddy is still around is because it started its life in California.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2017, 02:09:33 pm »
Ox,

Now if we could just convince Rubbermaid to team up with Fischer-Price to make the rest of the car, cars would last generations.



sandhills,
There's a special tool shown in the service manual, but not much chance of getting that.
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2017, 03:30:11 pm »
Grouch they already did that. It was called saturn :)
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2017, 06:22:47 pm »
Crusarius,

That was GM imitating Rubbermaid, and it scared 'em. They went back to rust-o-mobiles.  ;D

Fisher-Price stands up to the loving attention of 2-year-olds and Rubbermaid garbage cans are cared for by Sanitation Engineers. Cars don't get that kind of abuse except in demolition derbies.



(What a thing to yak about for my 1,000th post.)
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2017, 06:25:08 pm »
I still have a 92 saturn SL2. not a spec of rust anywhere on the body panels :)

Actually I don't think GM was scared I think the market was not ready for it. Same thing as the Aluminum bodied vehicles.

There are many opinions on that but I am all for aluminum. It really is a better material all around.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2017, 06:36:29 pm »
Finally got that contrary clutch assembly started back on -- all 6 bolts are started and all 6 of those aggravating, dinky pushrods are still where they're supposed to be. I just hope everything is adjusted well enough.

Spent most of yesterday and some of last night trying to get those clutch release arms "coplanar" to the pressure plate. I don't have any true and flat surface big enough to bolt that thing to, so I just bolted it back-to-back with the old pressure plate + clutch cover using three 1/2-13 threaded rods.

I tightened each threaded rod in turn until the release arms started rising and the clutch plate was captured; tightening continued then until spacing was equal at each rod between the milled surface of the old cover and the new. Using three feeler gauges -- .003, .004 and .005 -- I think I got it the same at each rod. That doesn't guarantee those are coplanar because I have no way to test the flatness of either milled surface.

The only thing I could measure from, to check the release arms, was the center of the clutch plate. Those arms don't have a precision, milled or ground surface that contacts the release bearing; it looks like each was run past a belt or drum sander. I measured in pairs going around and around that thing until there's about .002 difference, max, between any two. That was tedious.

They started out different enough that you could see it. It's as good as I can get it, just hope it's good enough.


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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2017, 06:43:12 pm »
I still have a 92 saturn SL2. not a spec of rust anywhere on the body panels :)

Actually I don't think GM was scared I think the market was not ready for it. Same thing as the Aluminum bodied vehicles.

There are many opinions on that but I am all for aluminum. It really is a better material all around.

Aluminum has a shorter fatigue life than steel. You can't deform it for near as long without it cracking. For much of a car or truck, it would be great; some parts, not so good. (That stupid Giggling Monkeys commercial showing dropping jagged rocks or concrete to pierce an aluminum bed doesn't make me want one of their rust-o-matics).

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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2017, 08:35:04 am »
I guarantee you did a fine job on getting your clutch pack co planar, or whatever they call that.  It's flat and true all the way around from the fingers' perspective.  Right down to a thousandth.  If your old clutch didn't chatter or wobble around using it you'll be fine cause you used this non chattering piece to compare it to.  Your diligence with this is much more than I've ever done.  Nothing wrong with that - it's just something to compare your work to and make you feel better about it.

I think these old clutch systems just aren't that picky.  I used to just go by feel and sight and never had any problems on any of them.   Maybe I got lucky.  But I think it's just that they're not that picky.  You were much more careful than I ever was so I think you'll be just fine.

There is no way to adjust the clutch fingers through an inspection hole or plate?  Every tractor I've ever seen has some sort of way to get in there to do this maintenance without splitting it.  It would be strange if they built it without a way to adjust this.  Maybe after the initial setting like you did it's all done from the outside on the push rod?
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2017, 02:51:19 pm »
Ox,

Thanks!

The play (at the pedal) is adjusted by the rod, but the initial setting of the clutch release levers is done on the bench. I just don't have the measurements for that universal stand the manual references, nor the height above its flat surface for those calibrating arms. It would be a real fight to adjust each release lever through the inspection port. It's hard enough to adjust the PTO clutch through there and those adjusters are close by the case and port as they come around.

This thing is eating up too many pretty days. I should be roofing, clearing for a shop addition or even sawing.

After getting it all bolted up and torqued to 55 ft-lbs, the release levers look to be way too high. All the drawings show them level at rest. Mine are poking out quite a bit. I measured and the release bearing's full travel is only about 1-1/8 inch. The tips of the release levers are about 2-1/8 above the clutch. I'm going to do some more measuring and pondering before pushing the halves back together. May have to work on something else for a day just to clear some frustration.
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Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2017, 04:31:23 pm »
From the pictures you showed and description it looks like your tractor was one that was manufactured by Universal Tractor Company in Romania. Originally designed by Fiat and then manufactured by Universal. They were imported and sold in the US under their own name as well as Long, Oliver, White, Allis Chambers plus some others. We have two, both bought new. One is a Universal and the second is a Long.

Good tractors. I have bought a few parts such as alternators, starters and pumps off Flea Bay at half or less than some of the parts dealers wanted and they have worked good so far. Forty three years on the Universal and thirty five on the Long. Read quite a bit about what happened to Long and their demise. Basically they were done in by a corrupt foreign company that had purchased them.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2017, 06:06:24 pm »
luvmexfood,

UTC was one of the names I forgot when trying to post the trail from Tarborough, NC to FarmTrac and Canada. Thanks.

This one has the Long 310 decals and some pieces have Romania cast into them. It has been mostly trouble-free for me. It doesn't get a lot of hours, but it has handled every load I've asked of it.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2017, 07:36:56 pm »
Need to bring this up to date, getting too many photos piled up in the camera. :)


I know some folks think I exaggerate or hallucinate when telling about how fast things _can_ rust here.
This photo is timestamped: 2017:09:02 17:39:00


This photo is timestamped: 2017:09:03 18:43:18


We had several abnormally cool days and nights and then it changed suddenly to hot and humid about the middle of the morning. Every heavy piece of steel in the garage condensed moisture and rusted. That happens several times each spring and fall.




Rough measurements for the clutch alignment tool.


Found a piece of 1-3/8 cold rolled steel rod. The end has been center drilled but not faced off; that's just the bandsaw cut on the end.


Thought I'd better use the tailstock on this. Don't really know how to use a lathe, so I fake it.






1-3/8 inch diameter is a good fit for the main clutch. Had to turn it down for the PTO clutch and the flywheel.


That's the PTO clutch.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2017, 07:43:19 pm »
Fiddling with adjusting the clutch release arms was tedious and time-consuming.


This is after all the fiddling. I used 3 of those 1/2-13 threaded rods to bolt the thing back-to-back with the old one. The adjusting was mostly by guess and by gosh, because I don't have the measurements Long used for their special tools.


Hanging in mid-air with the alignment tool and PTO clutch. The 3 little pushrods are showing just outside the edge of the clutch disk.


The whole thing finally holding itself in place -- no sling or strap needed. The little strings are there to keep the pressure plate from moving enough to allow the 3 longer pushrods to fall out. Again.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2017, 07:52:26 pm »
Now it's up to date.


Note the clutch release lever poking 'way out there.


Straight edge shows the angle of those levers better.


Straight edge in the same position as above. End of tape measure against the milled face of the back of the engine.


The end of the clutch release lever peeking out from behind the straight edge. (Perspective makes the closer, out of focus lever appear as if it's lower).


Measuring from the face of the release bearing to the milled face of the transmission case that mates with the milled face on the back of the engine.


Cross section of clutch assembly. Note the angle of item 11, the clutch release lever -- pretty much parallel with the clutch disk.


Adjustment illustrations.

I've come to the conclusion that I'll have to readjust those clutch release levers, but won't have to pull the thing back off to do it.
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2017, 09:17:44 am »
you have the same rust problem there as I do here.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2017, 09:26:24 am »
I'm a little confused.  The manual had you pre-setting the fingers on the bench, right?  This measurement is correct the best you can get it, right?  Then you bolted the clutch/pressure plate assembly on to the flywheel going around and around tightening the mounting bolts a little at a time because it's all kind of spring loaded and you're compressing all the springs, right?  This forced the release fingers out further, right?  Are you absolutely sure you should be adjusting anything at this point?  It seems like the pre-loaded "spring tension" of the clutch is set up properly now (on the bench, to be sure all the fingers do their equal job at a pre-determined measurement from the shop manual) and the remaining slack will be taken out with the clutch pushrod.

Am I missing something here?

Your rusting problem is worse than here, I think.  You might better just spray salt water on everything!  What I do is mix up a spray bottle 50/50 with ATF and kerosene and shake it all up.  It's a great penetrating/protecting spray that's cheap cheap cheap compared to the other stuff for sale.  A quick mist spray on your exposed parts protects from flash rust and cleans off easy with paint thinner or even soap and water.  Usually I just wipe off excess and whatever's left burns off in the case of clutches or brakes, etc.  Mating surfaces for gasketing and such gets cleaned well with acetone or thinner.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2017, 03:54:04 pm »
Ox,

The big problem and source of confusion is the lack of dimensions for that "universal stand", "spacers", and "calibration plate" in the service manual. Those determine where the tips of the clutch release levers rest when you get them all even and in the same plane as the surface against which the clutch bears. Without those dimensions, you can make those tips coplanar at any level above the clutch disk -- from barely clearing to sticking out about 6 inches. I guessed wrong 'on the bench'.

Look back at the photos (on the previous page) of the yardstick and tape measure. I removed the adjusting rod (pedal to release arm) and shoved the release bearing back as far as it wanted to go. It came to rest about 4-3/8 inches from the milled face of the transmission that mates to the back of the engine. The photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover shows the clutch release lever tips about 4-3/4 inches out from the milled face of the back of the engine. Put together that way, with no room to adjust the release bearing, it would be depressing the clutch release levers about 3/8 inch before you touch the pedal.

The cross section drawing of the clutch assembly shows the release levers apparently parallel with the surface of the clutch. Looking again at the photo with the yardstick across the clutch cover, if those release levers are adjusted to look straight, the tips end up about 4-1/8 to 4-3/16 inches from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine. That would put them roughly 0.125 to 0.1875 inches away from the face of the release bearing when the tractor is bolted back together.

I do need to confirm that I haven't pushed the release bearing back farther than the adjusting rod will allow, but I think it's ready to put back together now. It took some cobbling to be able to measure that coplanarity (while watching some high school football last night). Will get photos up today of that cobbling.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2017, 04:38:17 pm »
Just confirmed that the adjusting rod will go back on with the release bearing pushed back as far as I have it.

There's a flat on each clutch release lever where the lock nut tightens down on the adjusting screw. For the rough setting of those levers, I just placed that aluminum yardstick on that flat and the tip of the lever, then measured from the milled mating surface on the back of the engine on each side to the yardstick. They became equal on each side at about 4-3/16 inches.

First attempt at making them coplanar involved a dial indicator on a magnetic base attached to the flat of the engine. It didn't work. Dial indicator wouldn't give two readings in a row that were the same.


Second attempt. This didn't work because those spring clamps let the micrometer wiggle. The framework made out of small bar clamps was ok.


Third attempt worked. Same framework as above, but a long-nosed hemostat replaced one of the spring clamps (silvery nose showing lower right in photo). I numbered the release levers because I thought it would take a few times around to get them right.


Lever number 2.


And number 3. Supposed to be within 0.004 of each other and I'm a little over that, but it's good enough. This was the 2nd time around, just to be sure, and they measured the same as the first time around.


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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2017, 11:02:31 am »
I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2017, 04:13:40 pm »
I understand now and thanks for the explanation.  It sucks that that stupid thing is so complicated.  But now it sounds like you got it by the shorts.

I'm hoping I got it by the short ones. Took me the length of 2 football games (actually listened to and watched parts of 6 games; 3 in 1 time slot and 3 in the time slot after that :) ), but that sucker is now unsplit! It stalled out for an hour or more as the main clutch reached the shaft, but finally came together. It is now no longer dependent on the hoist, floor jack and jack stands. Photos to follow.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2017, 06:11:20 pm »
It's now reunited with itself.


Tried using a digital level / angle gauge, just to soothe the nerves.


Close. A touch down on both hoist and floor jack brought 'em both to 0. That's not really significant, considering the gentle rolling hills of my garage floor.


The shaft is pretty well centered in spite of being out of focus.


It is whipped at this point. There is a stubby alignment dowel on each side and they are both engaged by the time of this photo.

The only stall was when the main shaft contacted the main clutch. The splines were not quite aligned. I was using a come-along attached to the front axle of the floor jack to ease the front half of the tractor back to the back half. When that clutch met the shaft, it stopped being very easy to pull. A gentle tug on the come-along only caused the two halves to buck upwards. Wiggling or shaking (gently, so as not to get any surprises) did no good.

I measured the gap all around and tried using C-clamps where it measured wider, but that didn't help. It took a dental mirror and flashlight to see the problem. A soft brass rod and a few taps to make the main shaft turn half a spline and it all came together easy, then.


View of the release bearing and release levers through the inspection port. The remaining gap between the tractor halves is barely visible in the darkness on the right in the photo.


About half that gap will disappear as the bolts pull the tractor back together.


That's about how much more it has to travel to close the gap between engine and transmission.


There's the tool that was essential in getting the splines lined up with the clutch for the final closure. Had to hold it at the very end and shine an LED flashlight through the hole, then substitute the brass rod for the mirror, tap a tooth, switch to mirror, repeat until aligned.


Gap closed.


Bolts just snugged, not torqued.


No gap anywhere around.

Whew! There's a first for me and I'm not really interested in ever having to split a second.
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2017, 09:29:03 pm »
Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2017, 05:42:06 am »
What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2017, 04:52:13 pm »
Most of the time I just snap a pair of vise grips on the PTO and turn it back and forth
until the splines match up.

Your arms are stretched from hauling all that stuff from your 'junk'yard. I can't reach around behind the tractor while peering through that little inspection port on the side of the transmission, and the PTO input shaft wasn't a problem because it slid in on the first try.

The PTO shift lever has 3 selections: 1. Synchronized -- the PTO output shaft is driven by the bevel gear in the differential; 2. Neutral -- the PTO output shaft is not driven by anything on the tractor; 3. Independent -- the PTO output shaft is driven directly by the engine through the PTO clutch and PTO input shaft.

Using vise grips on the PTO output shaft:
1. Synchronized -- you're trying to move the tractor's back half and the engine
2. Neutral -- won't do a thing to align anything
3. Independent -- would try to turn the engine, which in this case would also be turning the main shaft just by the friction of the clutch against that shaft. You could shift the gearbox into any gear to use the rear wheels to hold the main shaft still, but the PTO is still trying to turn the engine along with the 2 clutches.

It was easier to just tap on the splines with the brass rod through the inspection port to rotate the main shaft half a spline.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2017, 04:54:48 pm »
What an ordeal .I think maybe Oliver and John Deere had a better idea for"live power" .Use a separate  over center clutch for the pto shaft .

The owner's manual actually shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO. This whole 2-stage clutch just feels primitive and crude, to me.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2017, 10:17:41 am »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

There was one year Case made their DC tractors with live PTO and live hydraulics.  I think it was 1954 only.  I had one here I got running again from a pile of rust.  The main foot clutch lived in engine oil and lasted forever.  The PTO was from a pump and over center handle in front of the PTO shaft and the pump was driven all the time with a shaft from the engine.  Live hydraulic was from a pump on the engine I think, but I'm not sure.  Amazing technology for the time and not well known.  Nothing different under the sun, and started in 54 as far as I can tell.  I think Oliver was right there side by side with Case at this time as well.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2017, 06:58:07 pm »
The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2017, 07:08:32 pm »
grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2017, 07:43:37 pm »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2017, 08:31:40 pm »
They make an oil seal for Fords and Fergusons that have the same leaky problem .You have to grease the bearings then because it blocks the oil spinning down the axle shaft that  lubes them .They work about half the time .

Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2017, 10:23:08 pm »
The two stage clutch is 50s technology and I'm surprised to see it on an 80s machine.  I'm guessing it's a cheaper way to get the live PTO.  On the plus, it's a rugged and proven design.  I know at least one of the small John Deere utility tractors (something around a 650 or 850) had a 3 cylinder diesel and a non-live PTO.  It was like running an old Johnny popper or Farmall or Case running anything with the PTO.

[snip]

Ox,  Remember this is a copy of a Ford design from, I think, the 60s, so your assessment of it being 50s technology sure fits. The owner's manual shows a separate clutch lever for the PTO and 2 shifters for the transmission; the service manual shows this 2 stage clutch and a single shifter for the transmisson. So it started out copying an older Ford and then moved forward before the service manual was printed.



The trick to a non live power PTO is running an over run clutch coupling .Because if you clutch it with a heavy load like a big bush hog it can shove you all over the place for a few feet otherwise .
I've got a '54 JD 70 gasser that has the over center clutch on the PTO .You talk about a fuel guzzler . That big old thumper has a lot of power but you couldn't afford to farm with in this day and time .

Ha! I took an unintended trip on a Ford 9N, backwards down a hill you could barely walk up, because of not having an over-running clutch on the PTO. Going across the hill, turned uphill to turn around, couldn't get in reverse to complete the T and, because 9Ns were notorious for leaky rear seals and NO brakes, down the hill backwards I went.

My wife can't remember most stuff from pictures of when we first moved here, but she remembers that day clearly without photos. It was a frozen moment -- she was digging around the edge of the woods for ferns and as I started backwards past the tree line, mashing those useless brake pedals for all I was worth, and we locked eyes.

I figured it was a farewell look. Missed every tree on the way down, only got smacked by limbs not big enough to take any of my parts off, and came to rest on the only flat place in the hollow -- somebody had attempted to make a little stock watering pond that was only about twice as big as the tractor. I just sat there for 5 or 10 seconds before remembering to yell back up the hill that I was ok. Took a bit longer than that for the adrenalin shakes to stop.



grouch, You did a fine job , You're a lot better mechanic then me for sure.
Now I have the cat here Johns going to the dealership and have some loving too.

Thanks! I'd love to have been able to just call somebody to fix it, but that wasn't an option here. It's been a whole lot easier because of folks here on the forum. The discussion, feedback, other experiences with different machines, all helped to keep the frustration level low so I could concentrate on eating the elephant one bite at a time.
Took one of those trips one time. Only about 20 ft though. Was going up a hill on an old International tractor dad had bought. I was about 16. Tractor wouldn't pull the hill so I clutched it and hit the brakes for a lower gear. Not a sign of a brake. Big hill but after about 20 ft backwards I had ground enough metal off the gears to get it in a lower gear and let the clutch out. Dad told the dealer he bought it off about it and the dealer offered him his money back. Told dad he was afraid I would get hurt on it. Dad told him he would think about it. Now the dealer had known me since I was around 8. He came and got the tractor anyway and wrote dad a check.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 10:40:25 pm »
The only good brakes on those old tractors were John Deere .They were ahead of the reduction and outside of the oil from the axles ..Ollies had good brakes but they were designed to run in oil ,woven lining .Old Cats had good brakes,you could spin them on a dime and get back 9 cents in change .Fords and Fergies had the worse brakes of any tractor ever made .--I know I own two of them ,the later .

Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 11:01:03 pm »
Grouch. Out of curiosity I went and looked at the service manual I have. It covers the 360, 460 and 510 series. Has 26 pages on the transmission and clutch. Covers the 6 speed (1 shift lever) and the 8 speed (2 shift levers). The two tractors we have are a 445 with the one clutch pedal for both PTO and transmission. The 510 has a lever to work the PTO clutch. Everything I have run across for the 510 also works for the 455. If it will help I can email you a copy in a couple of days. Have it as a PDF. Reminds me I need to back it up again. Had it on a jump drive but don't know where it is. Found it once on the net but never been able to find it again. It also covers both a 10" clutch and a 11" clutch.
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 11:17:02 pm »
Thanks for the offer, luvmexfood.

I bought a printed service manual from the nearest FarmTrac dealer right after I got the tractor. After researching some mind-numbing, insane, twisted copyright crap, it was scanned and posted online: Service Manual Long 260 - 310 Series Tractor.
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2017, 05:17:58 am »
I had a ride myself years ago when a farmall jumped out of gear when going up a
steep hill. I had a load of fire wood on behind. The only thing that stopped me
was a big tree. No harm done. I bet I traveled backwards 100 feet.
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Offline luvmexfood

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2017, 12:56:02 am »
I had a ride myself years ago when a farmall jumped out of gear when going up a
steep hill. I had a load of fire wood on behind. The only thing that stopped me
was a big tree. No harm done. I bet I traveled backwards 100 feet.
One never forgets rides like that.
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2017, 09:11:27 am »
Two of my neighbors (one now deceased) used to haul hay for people together with an A JD and a 60 JD.  We have a hill we call Kruse hill that's now a paved highway but back then just a dirt road and Dewey my late neighbor used to kick it out of gear going down the hill with the old underslung and hay stack behind.  One time the other guy was following with the pickup and clocked him at over 60 mph  :o.  They'd use the 60 to help pull the A up hills in bad road conditions then behind going down hill to help hold it back, one time they went a little to far uphill and when they reached the bottom the guy on the 60 was on the hood hugging the muffler and the narrow front of the A was on the seat of the 60  :D, I'm not joking or exaggerating.  Dewey always said he never new how they lived through those days.

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2017, 03:05:47 pm »
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a farm tractor running 60 mph, much less be in the driver's seat.

It's not done 'til it runs. I'll be posting updates as this thing goes back together, until it can move out of the garage under its own power.

Spent 2 days getting the bolts torqued that hold the two halves together. 5 of them are hex socket head cap screws and 3 of those are in positions where a torque wrench head won't fit.

I used a digital luggage scale, a piece of thinwall electrical conduit with a loop of wire 12 inches from the end to hook the scale to, and a 10mm Allen (hex) wrench to torque those. The scale said it's only accurate when used vertically, but I tested it against the torque wrench and as long as you power it up while vertical, and wait for it to zero, it's fine at any angle.

One of the hex head cap screws was also in a bad position. I had to use an open end wrench on it for 1/6 of a turn at a time with the luggage scale hooked in the box end. The wrench was 8 inches from center of bolt to center of box end, so I had to pull 82.5 lbs to get the 55 ft-lbs of torque needed. Used a piece of wood in the thin steel handle of the scale -- it was not made to be friendly to fingers.

4 other bolts required a crowfoot wrench on the torque wrench. Out of 12 bolts, 2 were easily accessible to a torque wrench.

2 days for 12 bolts -- Anybody want to hire me to work on tractors by the hour?

(P.S. I did accomplish other stuff in those 2 days; it was just frustrating changing tooling from bolt to bolt and I had to get away from it often to keep from adjusting things with a sledge).
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2017, 09:20:15 am »
We never torqued those bolts.  Good and tight was always good enough.  Just think - you get to retorque them in a week or so.  I don't ever remember any coming loose but it's good to check anyways.  Kinda like when you move the rear wheels on adjustable track tractors - you better be checking those hub bolts every day for at least a week - they always seemed to need more tightening.
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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2017, 09:41:14 am »
We never torqued those bolts.  Good and tight was always good enough.  Just think - you get to retorque them in a week or so.  I don't ever remember any coming loose but it's good to check anyways.  Kinda like when you move the rear wheels on adjustable track tractors - you better be checking those hub bolts every day for at least a week - they always seemed to need more tightening.

On you tractor wheels and anything like that I take a copper hammer and pound
on them after I tighten them up You would be surprised how well that works.
You can always get a few more turn out of them. I think it settles the dirt under
the treads.
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2017, 09:52:57 am »
Grouch, you never know how many "projects" I may have going at any one time just so I can get away from the other  :D.

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2017, 06:53:31 am »
I do that, too, sandhills!  :D


There's no reason these bolts should have to be re-torqued. It's one flat surface against another, and I cleaned every thread so they'd run up by finger, first. I just wish they'd spent a bit more time designing the casting so you could get a wrench in there.  >:(
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2017, 08:57:51 am »
Didn't you say some of those bolts were pretty loose when you began this project?  I can't remember fully...

I know I've found loose tranny bolts before on tractors.  It's why I mentioned a retorque just to save you mental anguish in the future.  :)
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2017, 06:38:18 am »
I'm afraid the only way to prevent me having mental anguish in the future is to remove the mental. The trouble with that is, the patient doesn't know he's gotten relief.

You may be right about some of those bolts being loose before; I can't remember and haven't looked back through here to see. My guess is that the last person to pull this thing apart got fed up with trying to access the bolt heads to tighten 'em!
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2017, 11:23:59 am »
Friday night, 2017-09-22, the tractor was able to move again under its own power and the clutch works. Ordeal started 2017-08-25 so I squeaked in under a month.

It's amazing how many little details had to be dealt with after putting the two halves back together. It was about as much as pulling, rebuilding, and replacing an engine in a car.

  • connect hard lines to power steering reservoir and pump
  • connect alternator top bracket and tension belt
  • connect hard lines to hydraulic pump
  • bolt fuel tank support brackets to bellhousing and transmission
  • bolt firewall to fuel tank support brackets
  • install pads for fuel tank
  • install fuel tank with steel strap
  • connect (3) fuel lines
  • connect ground and fuel gauge sender wires to fuel tank
  • install kill lever and knob
  • install throttle lever (custom bend because it's been rubbing the main PVC fuel line for years)
  • untangle the wiring harness and drape it over the fuel tank
  • install rear hood sheet metal
  • connect neutral safety switch
  • install key switch and starter switch
  • connect tach/hour meter drive cable to instrument panel
  • connect wiring harness to instrument panel and install panel
  • install rear light switch and harness
  • install steering wheel
  • install subframe (just 8 bolts but a pain to line up with floor jack and wood blocking)
  • place and tie hydraulic hoses for front end loader to subframe
  • install power steering hydraulic cylinder
  • fill power steering reservoir with 15w-40 oil (and discover the filter cap has a hairline crack that oozes)
  • fill transmission with trans/hyd. fluid
  • install seat
  • put the lift arms back on the rocker shafts 'cause I ain't working on that leak no mo' for a while
  • adjust clutch pedal free travel
  • connect negative battery cable
  • clear the area in case it won't clutch
  • crank and test

It worked. Still haven't tested the PTO clutch, though. Will savor the victory for a while first.
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2017, 01:54:16 pm »
 smiley_thumbsup
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Offline Ox

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2017, 08:51:01 am »
This is why people who have never done any wrenching squeal when they see a repair bill.  They've never done it and so they don't understand just how much fiddling around there is. 

Glad you got her together and working again.  Don't you hate the butterflies when you first go to run it?
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Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2017, 08:38:33 pm »
Ox,

I cleared everything front and rear before firing it up, just in case I couldn't clutch it or yank it out of gear.  :D
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Offline sandhills

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2017, 09:24:54 pm »
I know the feeling guys, glad it all worked out.

Offline Randy88

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2017, 11:04:29 pm »
Gee I showed up to the party just in time, fashionably late, but just in time for admiring the outcome and it only took me about an hour to read the whole thread.      Thanks for sharing your ordeal, done a lot of tractor splits over the years, for a multitude of reasons, but none went quite this smooth before.   




Offline campwags

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2017, 02:23:01 pm »
I need to replace the clutch in my Kioti DK65... but after reading all of this post... I will shop around for someone else to do it, or just trade it in on a new one.

Thanks for posting all of this.  This forum seems to have better content and info than some of the tractorbynet boards.   ???
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TK 2000, Woodmaster 718, Kioti DK65s w/Farmi JL501, Kioti NX4510 and a Kubota KX 41-3 excavator, Japa firewood processor and an assortment of trailers, solar kiln and out buildings.

Offline grouch

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Re: splitting a tractor
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2017, 08:20:13 pm »
campwags,

I'd check the service manual. Likely your tractor is newer and doesn't have this 1950s - 1960s style PTO clutch. Several members have pointed out that newer tractors have a separate hydraulic system for the PTO. That removes considerable complication in replacing the clutch.

It still leaves all the stuff that has to be removed before and installed after splitting the tractor, changing the clutch, and putting the halves together, though. :D
 
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