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How not to get scammed when buying logs?

Started by Satamax, March 12, 2022, 10:12:15 AM

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Satamax

I fantasising about buying a truckload of wood, to cut into planks and beams.

Buying from someone i know. The father used to work on a snowcat in the chairlift company i still work for. The mother used to be in the  ski patrol. The uncle runs  the biggest sawmill around. An Pierre is cutting full time, and is also à town rep.

Not knowing much about logs.

I thought i would ask you guys, for any sensible advice you might have.

Not sawing full time at all. I would love him to do me a 1/3rd larch, 1/3rd douglas, 1/3rd pine. But that might not happen.

Thanks a lot guys.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

newoodguy78

Be very clear about what you're looking for. Lengths, diameter, grade and species you want. Personally I'd research what the going rates are to keep it fair to both sides. 
If you're hesitant a trip to his landing to look them over prior to delivery would probably be time well spent. Best of luck. 

Satamax

Well, first of all, it would be nice to know what to ask, and what to look for.  I admit I'm overly optimistic about what to saw.  But with Europe going bonkers. I wonder if it is even sensible. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mudfarmer

Some things to look for are signs of metal in the logs, cracks from felling/processing, excessive mud and dirt on the logs, adequate trim length, defect such as sweep, crook, rot that will lower your yield.

I can tell you from helping to saw thousands of feet of it recently that if the European Larch has been through a processor head or delimber it could have a lot of limb tearout that will reduce yield of jacket boards.

Best of luck!

YellowHammer

Buying logs is like buying cars.  If it looks good, it probably is, and if it's not what you want, don't let someone talk you into it.

Logs should be straight, don't buy a log with sweep if you can help it.  Since you know the guy, talk to him and have him help cherry pick logs for you.  Then you will saw them up,  and you will see a difference between what he thinks is a good logs and you can turn into usable lumber.  

In my mind, the number one defect is shake.  Do not buy a log with it.  

The second number one defect is a limb pocket, where a limb long ago fell or broke off it there is a little depression that looks unsound.  Rainwater get in the log through even the smallest limb pocket and rots the limb from the inside out.

Metal is bad, but sometimes you can get very high grade logs with a nail, for very little.  

Do not buy logs with split stems form improper felling,or at least have them scale that back to sound wood.  

Don't buy logs that has an end that looks like sliced pizza, or at least scale that back to sound wood.

Don't buy rotten logs or even standing dead logs.  Buy dripping sap, wet, cut yesterday logs, not two months ago sitting in a log pile.

Don't buy knots, or knotty logs.  

Stay away from crotch logs.

Don't buy limbs.  

Do buy butt or second cut logs.

Do not buy lightning struck logs.

There's lots more, and there are exceptions to every rule I mentioned above, but in general nice logs make nice wood, and bad logs make low grade wood.

It will come with experience, and realistically evaluating what you have sawn from what you have bought.

The best and highest grade of a log is normally the part you see, the faces and side wood.  Logs do not get better the more you cut into them, they get worse.  So ugly runs log deep.  

Arrange to go to the log yard when he loads you up, see him grade the logs and you will see what he is looking for.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Satamax

Thanks a lot guys. 

Yellowhammer.  What about logs sitting in my own yard after purchase? That's real bad. Actually, with  pine, i guess it is bad. Here i have split pine for firewood, that i got for free, which was all bored by insects. I have cut larch which has been on the ground a fair while, no insects part the bark. 

I wish i had time to do everything. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

YellowHammer

There is a difference between logs you buy and logs you don't buy.  Logs bought and paid for are an investment in money and in time, and like any investment, should always be given priority in order to do whatever is necessary to get maximum return on investment.  

At that point it's not a log anymore, it's dollar bills, and just like you wouldn't throw dollars bills on the ground to rot, neither should money logs not be sawn while they are in their prime.

In many ways I have the same issues, I have way too much stuff to do, but if you watch my videos, you'll hear me mention "quota" and how I have to saw enough to reach it.  In my case, all my sawing is geared toward feeding my kilns.  They are hungry and if I skip a day or two of sawing, then they will be empty.  Now, I'm not saying I run the mill 8 hours a day, every day, but I will run it as much as necessary to hit my quota, whatever that is.  I have a lumber business, not a sawmill business, and sawing is only about one of a half dozen steps required to turn logs into KD, sellable lumber.  So I keep my sawing in perspective.  Even if it's late in the day, I'll fire up the mill and if I saw up just a few logs, it all counts.  Even a couple extra hours makes a big difference.  I'm not sure what you production requirements are per week, but divide it up into 4 days, and start on Monday, run for a few hours, no distractions, max productivity, and then go do something else.  Saw at your "business" sawing speed.

That's how I do it, I don't randomly saw log log after log, I come up with a sawing plan or need in my head on the weekend, and once I have competed the sawing the next week and hit my quota or goal, I'm done.  Feed the kiln, feed the business, and then done.  Remember one of my Yellowhammerisms, "Sawing is fun the first couple hundred boards, and then it's just work."  So treat it like work, and find a new gear and step on the gas.  It's like bricking a house.  Just another brick, just another log.  

Here's something I've learned over the years from watching all manner of professional and hobby sawyers. Professional sawmillers, especially retired ones, are the starkest contrast. They will tell stories, drink coffee, relax, and be relatively sedentary, but when they walk up to a sawmill, they shut up, they focus, the years fall away and they start sawing, and saw fast.  It's very cool to watch, it's a muscle and mind memory thing.  It's simple, put the log on the mill, saw the log, put another log on the mill, saw the log, and repeat, over and over.  No distractions, no talking, just sawing. They shift into high gear and do it effortlessly.  

Hobbiest, in on the other hand, don't really have a high gear, they just "saw."  Nothing against that, but if paying for logs, then it's time to saw the log and not tickle it. You can watch lots videos and just look at the sawyer, and tell if he is a pro or a hobbiest.  So do the same, hit the higher gear and saw the log.  

I don't know if this will help at all, but I hope it does.    





 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Satamax

Thanks a lot Yellohammer.

The sawing for me, is something i enjoy. But it is not my job either.  

I'm doing roofing and carpentry.

There is a fair bit of what i do in pictures on maps.  

My business.

Mind you with diesel and wood price. I might need to saw more. It gets complicated to get wood cheap Russian larch will be "delayed" or banned. But my sawmill runs on diesel.

Gain on one side, loss on the other  ;D I don't have time to turn the gen set to woodgas assist.

Anyway, you make perfect sense. As long as i'm doing a roof in spring, may and june. I won't saw. So, i better wait for the truck. And i might go and talk with Pierre's father. Which i have known for a long while. See if he could addapt to what i can saw. My support equipement isn't the best, i have to strap the logs to move those with the crane. I don't have log turners, nor powered toe boards. I load and unload on the same side. My piece of land being fairly small.  If he could deliver me a part load of something like 10000bdft in logs. That would be best.

That the joys of being a one man band.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mudfarmer

That's good stuff

Here is what I meant with the larch, was a live knot but got torn right out with the limb during processing. Have seen some go 4-5" deep into the log.

Sorry this is the only pic I took and it isn't a great example, hole full of ice, board would have needed to be cut back anyway etc  :D Really hurts in the middle of an 8" board though.




newoodguy78

Satamax I guess I misunderstood exactly what information you were looking for as far as buying logs. I wish you the best and certainly didn't mean to offend. Old YH has quite a business and offered up some great advice. 
Best of luck to you with whatever you decide to do. 

kantuckid

Great advice overall, but that's a big number of "don't buys"?
Leads to how picky one can be with the source, or not.  I mostly don't buy logs from others but can say that with my recent buy of eastern white pine in tree lengths, I bought the entire trees, bucked while I was present, to lengths I called for, with only the oddball tips thrown away and bought the rest. The logger & I scaled the logs and tallied the sale at same price he gets from a large area mill owner we both also know well.
OP being a carpenter the species should be an easy choice, I'd think? Also the size and length based on reasons for buying the wood to begin with. 
I bought butts much larger than logical for cabin wall logs, but partly to provide myself with some premium cuts and partly as a reality of what would have remained for the logger to sell to his regular buyer. 

Regarding the thread title: it sort of gets the talk off on the "wrong foot" as we say in the USA.  ;D

Being "scammed" implies a logger who we sort of expect to cheat us, or at least a good chance that'll happen. 
 
Not a great start for a satisfactory beginning to buy anything, albeit logs or most anything else of value?
 Perhaps the French to English word choices are less than useful r.e. "scammed" as a term for buying 
 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Satamax

Quote from: newoodguy78 on March 13, 2022, 10:48:19 AM
Satamax I guess I misunderstood exactly what information you were looking for as far as buying logs. I wish you the best and certainly didn't mean to offend. Old YH has quite a business and offered up some great advice.
Best of luck to you with whatever you decide to do.
No worries! You know i'm not fussed.
Mudfarmer, i have sawn this in the autumn.


 
That's what i call overoptimistic.
Kantuckid. I would say, i trust a French logger, as mch as an Italian mechanic. Or a French one! I'm verry leery.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

YellowHammer

I've known quite a few loggers, only a few were crooked. :D

Most are honest, but they don't know sawing, they know felling.  For example, when I had my first mill, we went across the farm and selective cut the trees that we thought were the best for us.  We put them own the ground, skidded them up, put in the sweat, and when we got to sawing we had what I thought was a an excellent pile of logs.  I didn't know how much I didn't know.  I would look at them as say "Well, its good, except for that" or "That won't matter, we can mill around that" and things like that.

My helper and I put out two pallets, the plan was to put the "good" wood on one pallet, and the "common" on the other pallet, and we got to sawing.  About lunch time, we stopped, and we only had a couple, may half dozen boards on the "good" pallet, and the other pallet was just about full.  I couldn't believe it, we had sawn out rear ends off and all we had was a pile of low grade garbage wood.

Then I went to a "real" sawmill and bought some logs from them, and started learning what I didn't know.  I saw the your work on the web link, it's very good, and it will take good wood.  So all you can do is talk to your friend, maybe they can arrange to get you just a few logs, so you can start sawing them and get a process going with your friend, so they know what you want, and you know what they think you want. 

One of the big advantageous to building a relationship as you are doing is that they will start to cherry pick logs.  They see logs all day, and I pay just a little bit more to have the good logs put on "my" pile vs the "mountain."  So the loggers and sawmills around me will filter out the stuff I don't want, and I use them as a first line buffer.  I don't want thousands of mill run logs, I want a few of the best.  So they will help me out, because they win and I win, everybody wins.     

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ianab

Locally at least logs are graded at the landing before being loaded. Different mills / export / pulp / firewood pays different amounts for the grades of log, both size and quality. Similar to the way sawed lumber is graded. If a logger want's to maximise profits, they learn the grades, and send the logs to the market that's paying the most for that grade. Of course the buyer does a quick check to make sure all the logs in the load are actually that grade. Now a hidden defect could sneak through and only be discovered during milling, but that's just and acceptable % of "Defects".

So you will see loads like this, which is top grade pruned butt logs. 


Next truck will be different, pulp logs, over size ugly logs going to firewood, regular 
logs for export. But it's going to be pretty obvious if something different is loaded on that truck.  

Now a "scam" would be paying for a load like above, and getting a load of junk firewood delivered. YH has gone through the reasons you might want to reject logs, or buy them as a lower grade. But the larger mills or export buyers don't get scammed. Try that stunt with them, and you won't get invited back, or even paid for the load. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Satamax

It good yo hear you guys.

QuoteBut the larger mills or export buyers don't get scammed. Try that stunt with them, and you won't get invited back, or even paid for the load.
Yep, but that also why the little guys like me sometimes do.  :D

Guillaume, next door samill's owner, complains that the same provider doesn't give him the best logs. He's got the same saw as mine, well, just the model after. Same size and all.

But the problem is that the felling company also has a huge sawmill. And firewood business. So they keep the best for themselves! 

In a 50 miles radius, there is three big mills. A smaller one of guillaume. And me, a enlightened hobyist i would say. Only one provider for mill wood. There is another one more a bit further down the valley.  But not much choice. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

customsawyer

I'm set up a little different. I don't mind getting some of the "not so great logs". I like to figure out different ways to market them. There isn't much that a log can throw at me that I don't have the equipment to handle it. I can normally get those kind of logs cheaper. Once I figure out something to do with them I normally have a higher profit margin. There have been several times it develops into something I'm trying to produce regularly. That's where the tricky part comes in. When you are trying to explain to a logger that it's okay for them to bring you a few of those those logs on a load. They have been told their entire career these logs are bad and to just leave them in the woods. I've had to bring a few to my store and let them see some of my products. One bought some of the product before he left. All of them have left shaking there heads because of how much of that product they have thrown away
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Satamax

Yep, i think i understand that too.  Like crotchy knoty ash with burl, flame, or quilt. cut in thick slabs, to make tables. I need to buy some walnut logs, for myself, for this very purpose. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

customsawyer

Those types of logs are nice but there are several mills around here that will take those kind of logs. I'm talking about the ones no one else wants. Think outside the box. The crotch and burl wood they know they can sell if they find the right buyer. Go to the woods and see what is getting left. I know there isn't much so sometimes talk to the guys hauling the pulp wood. There will be some good sized logs on the truck with some defects the regular mills don't want. That's the ones I'm talking about. When you get them they become a special product. Well I like Special products because it lets me take the first letter of Special and draw a vertical line through it. $$$$$  ;)
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

kantuckid

A mill that asks for high grade logs only on every load is gonna run off their logger base? Not that they can accommodate lots of junk either. Certain species may prevail while others have a niche market and on/off buying from mills  that don't specialize. They know those guys have to feed families, operate or business dies out, etc.. Only one larger mill in my area runs it's own logger crews. Every large mill I know of near me (and several are seriously large) their log buyer is now or has been a logger. Quite a few loggers near me have bought their own bandmills in recent years. It simply makes good sense for highly independent type individuals (such as loggers!) to be able to saw logs for their own family use, building homes and barns, hobby stuff too, and have a means to use materials they come by cheap. Many loggers do own their own timber which makes a mill even more logical.  Wood business runs through families quite often.
Back to scam possibility: Thankfully most folks are not scamming anyone. My wife and I both worked in corrections & juvy treatment and there were days when you wondered who wasn't a crook. :D

On the French & Italian mechanic thing-I don't get that one? As a mechanic, who also worked often on foreign cars, some exotics, I saw many who came here to the USA bringing high skill levels FWIW. Indians for one of several e.g.'s. 

Fact that your one small deal for a logger means you'll be somewhat fortunate they'll even bother with you, it's more so a favor of sorts IMO.  

 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Satamax

Kantuckid, as for French or italian mechanics. One example, one local car electrician did my starter motor, long time ago, told me that the rotor was shot. Ok, fine, do the job. Three weeks later, i was under the hilux, crawling in snow. To get the starter motor out. Just to realise that he had only changed the brushes. And had welded those badly. Or a friend of my father, who has welded the chassis and body of two renault 16 I mean front and rear of two different cars. To make one car. Or the guy who sold me my first "fancy" car. He had cut the wheel arch of a crashed car, rewelded it in the car he sold me. Just to use the papers, for another body. Which might have been stolen in italy. I will never know. So you can imagine my opinion about them! :D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Ianab

Quote from: kantuckid on March 14, 2022, 10:18:07 AMA mill that asks for high grade logs only on every load is gonna run off their logger base?


The mill pays a premium for the high grade logs. A lower rate for lower grade. Now a different mill might pay more for the lower grades, because they are mostly making fence and pallet boards, so they actually want the cheaper logs, and don't want to pay the premium for the "veneer" grade. Likewise the firewood merchant will pay the best for the junk logs. The mill specialising in high grade lumber has zero use for junk logs.  Mix in the pulp and export markets, and all the logs get sold, basically to the highest bidder, and the logger / landowner get the best return. 

The loggers aren't tied to any particular mill or market, they grade the logs before loading and sell loads to the highest bidder, although distance / trucking costs have to be considered too. Some logging companies run their own trucks, others are contracted. The truck above is R&L Transport, they run a dozen or so trucks (not all logging), and haul from any logging site to any mill.   

Think of it like buying lumber. You buy the grade that suits your purpose, rather than just "mill run". Same principle, just the logs are graded and priced, in the same way boards are. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

YellowHammer

I remember when I went to one place, they wouldn't even talk to me, they have "hobbiests" sawmill owners show up every day of the week, and consider them a bother, kind of me and people who call with "high,y valuable walnut yard trees."  I was just another guy wasting their time.

It took about a year of buying logs for them and the yard guys started to learn my name.  After a couple years, I started getting a Christmas card in the mail.  Then years later, I started getting Easter hams, and invited to the company Christmas party.  So it takes time and money to build a good relationship, although I still get tested.

About a year ago, they had a log on the pile that a beaver wouldn't even poop on, but it was kind of cool.  Anyway, I half wanted it, but I had spent so many years training them to my standard, that I just said "No" and they hauled the log off.  The next load, one of the loader drivers laughed and said he won some money off me, because they had put the log on the pile as a plant and and had a betting pool to see if I would take it or not.  I didn't and he won.  Not only that, the next time I showed up I gave him a Hobby Hardwood official T shirt and hat.  They are high quality, and he wears it all the time, just to rub it in to his buddies there.  

So I guess the point is that always go to the log yard with your eyes open and a sense of humor.       
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Satamax

I love that story. My sense of humour is soo weird, that people ask me sometimes, if i'm autistic. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

I spoke with Pierre yesterday. 

We kind of came to an agreement. No pine this time, as we have some kind of pine borers. Some pinus Cembra. May be some ash.  And the rest of larch. Half a truckload or thereabouts. 30 or a smidge more cubic meters. 1060 cubic feet of wood.   For 5000€ To be delivered between now and june sometimes. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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