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Author Topic: After the sanity check!  (Read 2688 times)

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Offline Satamax

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After the sanity check!
« on: August 16, 2017, 04:42:31 pm »
Well guys!

I realy wanted a JD440. But here there's a few and far between. All expensive.

This machine was just next door, over the Lautaret pass. Less than 20 miles!







Originally, it's a "debusqueur" a french type of skidder. 4wheel drive, 4 wheel steer, lockers. 4 high, 4 low 4 extra extra low.

The snowblower is shot. But there's plenty of parts for the log stacler blade, winch etc. There is a "unic" V8 of 270hp in the back, with PTO etc. Hydraulics.  and whatnot. Only 250h on the machine, 150 on the back engine. The "chimneys" of the snowblower have 360 hydraulic rotation, which will become my log turner on the sawmill somehow.

V8 will most certainly replace the GM 6-71 in my gen set. There's rams on the snowblower for the blade etc.

So not a bad deal at 2000 Far sounder than a well broken in 440. It has a 6 inline saviem 5.5 liter of 125 din HP in the front.

So there's some new iron in my fleet.  ;D

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 05:55:47 pm »
Is that cab ROPS certified? or are you going to put a rollcage or T-Bar on?  (T- Bar behind cab http://www.engrep.co.nz/fertiliser.html  )
What type of tires might you use, old tyres and rims off an old forwarder?
http://www.trelleborg.com/en/wheels/your--industry/agriculture--and--forestry/forestry--machines

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 07:17:35 pm »
Now this is a bad idea i can get behind.. Right up my alley!

I like it.  What axles, and does it have any sort of suspension?

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 08:07:45 pm »
Riwaka, Rops certified? In France?  ;D for the moment, i have no plan. But along the roll cage line. There's plenty of space inside. Tirewise, the michelines on it will do for the moment.

Mike Belben, these are portals, made by Latil. Brakes juste outside the differential bulb. Not articulated, there's cardans, but a rigid bar below.  Ans the leaf springs are mounted on this. I haven't paid attention if SUA or SOA.

Here's a page describing the original tractor.

http://www.avant-train-latil.com/TL73.php
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline sawguy21

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 02:38:27 am »
I could have used that on my driveway last winter but the neighbors might get annoyed. I can just imagine it moving snow. ;D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 04:49:42 am »
Here, it's been 3 or 4 winters with less snow than usual. So the local machines weren't working much.

This one comes from paris airport. Which one i don't know. But it has only 275h. It has a 4 digit horameter, but can't have any more than the 275, it's brand new in some protected spots.

Same as mine, at work.



French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 04:57:18 am »
To work, but in the original configuration.





Discovered yesterday, that i have the small wheels :( For which it's even harder to find tires!

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 06:24:54 am »
Well, it looks much better suited than that crane and appears to have diff lock in both axles which will be a tremendous help.  A rear steering portal is an odd choice for a skidder since theyre inherently weakened by the kingpins and leverage that the portal box places on the inner knuckles, but it appears they have incorporated a lower tension brace across the bottom trunnion?  I suppose i would sacrifice the clearance for the increased strength.



Are they 14-20 xml's?  Thats a common american military tire.

Do you have a winch for it?

 
I highly encourage you to fab grapple fingers when you build your blade.  For every log ive wanted to push there has been another ive wanted to pull.

Offline 47sawdust

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 06:57:58 am »
Between this rig and the sawmill,there is no need for a sanity check.I can see you are a very troubled soul.There is no known cure ,so you might as well continue on the path you are on. ;D
 Best of luck to you.All I have to do is show your latest find to my wife and I can bring just about anything home.
 You are a great point man,keep up the hard work.
 Mick
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 07:53:36 am »
Well, it looks much better suited than that crane and appears to have diff lock in both axles which will be a tremendous help.  A rear steering portal is an odd choice for a skidder since theyre inherently weakened by the kingpins and leverage that the portal box places on the inner knuckles, but it appears they have incorporated a lower tension brace across the bottom trunnion?  I suppose i would sacrifice the clearance for the increased strength.



Are they 14-20 xml's?  Thats a common american military tire.

Do you have a winch for it?

 
I highly encourage you to fab grapple fingers when you build your blade.  For every log ive wanted to push there has been another ive wanted to pull.

Mike, there's lower tension brace. With those tires, about 12inches from the ground. They are 11.00r20 michelin XL. But i need one, cose one blew and has been replaced by a no good firestone.  There's a lock at the back, but there's no sign of a handle for the front. I bet there is all the gear inside tho.

I wouldn't mind a set of 14.00R20.


Between this rig and the sawmill,there is no need for a sanity check.I can see you are a very troubled soul.There is no known cure ,so you might as well continue on the path you are on. ;D
 Best of luck to you.All I have to do is show your latest find to my wife and I can bring just about anything home.
 You are a great point man,keep up the hard work.
 Mick

My soul is fine. It's just my brain which is demented! :D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 09:36:30 am »
Guys, just one daft question.

Do i keep the ultra low gears? It's on the PTO, and i could use this one for other things.

I have 1/1 for normal gears. 1.72 to one for the low ones. The max speed in normal 5 gear is supposedly 45kmh. or 28mph.  1.72 lower is already very good. I wonder if the 12.8 to one could be of any use?

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 05:09:13 pm »
The 11.00R20 is probably a NATO vehicle offroad tire, should be able to source from various tire suppliers as used tires if a new tire costs too much.

https://www.bkt-tires.com/en/pattern/em-936#cod_8903094026272_over   11r20
https://www.bkt-tires.com/en/pattern/earthmax-sr-44#cod_8903094046706_over

https://www.vrakking-tires.com/truck4x4-tires/231-1100r20-michelin-xzl-new.html

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 05:38:00 pm »
Sent a mail to vraking ans to another guy in France.

The later has replied, 294 shopping and taxes included.

I will see what vraking says. I hope i can scrounge enough to buy the tire, from the blower's metal. Ans few other bits of metal i have. I need four tons :(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Puffergas

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 06:28:16 pm »
I would be one proud puppy to own that machine. Nice ! !
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, IHC 300 Utility, Timberjack 225D, Burg Bandsaw mill

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 10:37:33 pm »
The 1:1 or 1.72.. Thats a transfercase after the transmission right? 

You want to know your crawl ratio.  First trans gear x tcase ratio x ring and pinion ratio x portal box ratio = crawl ratio.


My truck has about 60:1 crawl ratio..it might go 4mph to the floor in takeoff gear, and will get any load rolling without throttle.  I think deeper than 70:1 is pointlessly slow.


Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 03:26:48 am »
Mike, So these 1:1 and 1:1.72 are the transfer case ratios.

Then after you have 1.93 in the differentials, and 4.93 in the portals.

So that's Just for the secondary transmission, a ratio of 16,36, gearbox not taken into account.

The gearbox is from the Renault TRM4000 or it's brother Saviem SM8.

First gear is 7.41 to 1

Second 4.19

third  2.39

fourth 1.48

and fifth   1

So first gear low ratio, that's already 121 to one engine rotation. Plenty i would say!

With the 12.8 to one inserted, and the 1.72 out of the cinematic chain, that's 902.48 to one in first gear. So, at idle, it would do one wheel rotation every minute or so. Not worth it i'd think!



French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 10:48:19 am »
Youre confusing me now. 

Im seeing 5spd transmission, 2spd transfer case, single speed differential and portal box reductions.  Are there more? Does it have two manual transmissions in series.. Or a brownie box or something?

Crawl ratio
7.41 x 1.72 x 1.93 x 4.93 = 121.27

Transport speed
1.0 x 1.0 x 1.93 x 4.93 = 9.51


Seems pretty well set up IMO.   I think a 900:1 ratio is a pointless novelty unless you plan to get out and walk beside it.  Youd only find use for that type of ratio (inches per minute) in concrete type traction.  Anything wet or muddy will just spin.  Muck requires wheelspeed to clear the tire voids.
 

120:1is a very capable ratio.  It should be able to provide enough pull and engine braking for what you want to do. 



Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2017, 01:59:19 am »
Hi Mike.

I don't know what is a brownie box!

Basically, there's a second gear at the gearbox (i think) . Sort of. It's on the PTO, then coming back out to the main shaft with pulleys and V belts. An additional 12.8 to 1. I will try it. But i doubt it's of any use besides blowing snow. And since i need PTO for lots of things. I think this will have to go.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 02:19:28 am »
Starting thinning down

Photo from yesterday.



French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 11:41:34 am »
Browne-lipe was a manufacturer of auxiliary transmissions that went in series behind the primary trans to provide more ratios on american trucks of yore.  Eaton fuller incorporated the this internally with their auxilliary tail section in the roadranger line, which gave you only one shifter and some air buttons to wrestle, so brownies went extinct and fuller reins supreme.


I understand the pto box now.. It takes power off the trans input shaft, steps it down through extra reduction device and feeds it back into the driveline.  The purpose was to get full engine rpm (to run pumps, trecher, vibrator plow or auger etc etc) at a half mile per hour ground engagement speed.  Its not uncommon for trenchers to have a gear trans with a hydraulic drive option for plow engagement thats routed off the pto then back into the tcase.  Useless for you unless you plan to mow, till or mulch with it too.

I love your truck.   Im looking at those blower mounts and cylinders thinking how easy it would be to base a log loader/blade off them.  Then weld a limb riser brace right off that to an exo skeleton cage over the cab.  This thing is cool.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2017, 12:15:45 pm »
Mike, thanks for the reply.

The pto is blocked by the transmission thingy.

About the  chimney mounts, they're hydraulic. Ans will be transformed into log turners on the sawmill. Cylinders will go on the blade. Someway. And i just found some parts from a snowplough, with cylinders which will become stabilisers like on my crane. And the guy has a winch for little dough i think. A pan brand. About 15/20 tons.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2017, 10:01:41 pm »
I guess id hafta see this gear reduction.  I meant a power takeoff acess cover on  the side of the trans.. Not a pto shaft at the bumper.

Take lots of pics as you go!

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2017, 05:54:57 am »
Mike, this is pure weirdness.

It's dual transfer case. But not normal way. As in a crawler box. One feeding the other.

Nope. There's belts on the shaft from the gearbox, this shaft goes to the transfer case. The output of this transfer case is linked to the output front shaft of other transfer case. I dont even understand how this can work.  Since there's a differential in the normal transfer case. I think i would have to lock the diff, for the four wheels to work. I'll post photos in a minute.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2017, 05:04:06 pm »
Backside of the second transfer case, with the pulley cover.



Front, with the pulley visible, and the shaft, which is linked to the front output of the transfer case.

 

Still, that doesn't tell me where to take power for the winch, and hydraulics! I'm onto a lead for the stabilizers apron thingy i want at the back. And for a winch too.

I have taken out and cut the blower's slides.



Big one has a smaller engine (4236 4 banger turbo) than the little brother!  :(



And the big V8, i wish i could stuff this one in the  crane! 15 liters!




French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2017, 11:33:27 pm »
Yeah that belt drive tcase is a new one on me. 

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2017, 03:11:28 am »
Stripnaked!








Guys, one question for you. It would be complicated for me to fit the hydraulic pump on the end of the crankshaft, without raising the radiator.

Hard also, to use the space for the PTO, the gearbox shaft isn't standard. I have hard time finding parts.

I have studs on the crankshaft pulley. And i have a three groove one that i could fit there. and a matching 2 groove for the pump.

Do you think i could power the winch with two 1/2" belts on the pump?

Thanks.

Max.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2017, 11:03:52 am »
I've got this on the rear transfer case.




Anybody familliar with this.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2017, 02:55:56 pm »
Run the machine and see if its an engine speed pto or a ground speed.  Also if it is always live or if it has a neutral, if it reverses etc.  Would be good if you could determine an rpm with an IR tachometer.  Googling for a manual or parts breakdown of the tcase might help.  If theyre defunct you can always try calling whoever bought them out for old literature in archive, ive successfully done so with funk transfer cases.  Takes some time.


What family are the belts, A, B, C etc?  How many gpm do you want, and at what pressure and rpm?

American medium duty plow trucks with automatic trans often use a belt driven pto clutched pump just fine.  Im inclined to say no problem.  It is said that the fixed fan on a dt466 can consume something outrageous, like 60hp, at max rpm.  I dunno.  but its a pair of A belts on mine.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2017, 03:10:17 pm »
The PTO on the transfer case is on the end of the gearbox shaft.

So gear dependent, with a neutral. Tcase has a neutral too. So i could winch without having the wheels engaged.

But i'm wondering if i don't go shaft there. I have a lathe, a milling machine. and i can tackle the male part for this. And the housing.

And have a little pump for the two or three rams i need.

V belts were A type. No good!

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2017, 03:17:19 pm »
Mike thanks a lot for bearing with me.

What kind of cable speed should i be looking at for the winch?

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2017, 05:51:17 pm »
Any chance of finding a cheap hydraulic power pack? Run the winch with a separate engine/ hydraulic pump/ oil tank mounted on the back.
I imagine if you break a housing/ case on the old transfer unit it might be time consuming to find a replacement.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2017, 12:03:11 am »
Glad to help. 

Wallensteins max around 250 fpm on a 540 PTO.  Allied W400 skidder winch does 367 fpm.

Just keep in mind the faster the line speed the more input torque required to pull same log.  High input torque places more load on that rare tcase as riwaka mentioned.

12 gpm out of your A belts at 3000psi using "central hydraulic" pump setup might be the fastest route. 

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Pumps/Clutch-Pumps-Hydraulic/1-45-cu-in-Hydraulic-Clutch-Pump-w-Dual-Groove-V-Belt-Pulley-9-1737.axd


American 5ton military trucks had 20k worm gear winches on them with hydraulic or pto power and freespool, usually garwood.  I believe the pumps made 14gpm at 1000rpm or about 25gpm at governed speed. 

  Tulsa and braden are two other common brands and are also typically on knuckle booms and crane/hoist trucks.  Ive always hoped to find a dual drum wrecker winch with the swivel blocks for my skidder project, like how the euro machines are set up.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2017, 12:11:10 am »
Thanks a lot guys.

Well, gearbox and tcase are not that rare. Used on lots of army trucks. It's the pto which are rare. Even more the bottom one, than the gearbox top shaft one.

Mike, i don't quite get what the dual winches are for ?
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2017, 03:34:39 pm »
Just handy to have two independant cables. 

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2017, 01:11:15 pm »
Smidgeo pron!



Pulls like a charm, needs a winch tho. Turns on a dme, with it's four wheel steer. I need to fix the actuator of the rear locker. Change the fuel and filters. It stinks. An oil change would be good too.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline lopet

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2017, 08:15:03 pm »
Glad you got her going. 8)
But if someone drags a log like that on a gravel road he should be the one who cuts or saws it.  ;D ;D
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2017, 09:15:50 pm »
Nice

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 01:38:57 am »
Glad you got her going. 8)
But if someone drags a log like that on a gravel road he should be the one who cuts or saws it.  ;D ;D

Well, anyway, it'll go on my saw. But i might debark and run the pressure washer to it.

No choice, i have no winch nor a  up and down log basket with rollers. Yet!  :( The bridge above this road is about to fail. So i couldn't go with my crane. And i had to drag it on the tiny path in the woods. So, i might as well carry on. This is not my tree. One of a friend. But i dragged the three firewood ones the same.

Mind you the video is crappy.

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 01:42:02 am »
Also, i have 5 nice saw trees, under the chairlift i work on in the winter. That i'll need to pull before the winter. And if i don't have the winch, it will end up the same as this one.  :( :( :(

And it doesn't appear that i will be able to buy the winch any time soon.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 03:17:42 pm »
Well, broken the adapter piece of the crane's jib. :(

With this one.
 I'll put pics later. I can't do it from the phone.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: After the sanity check!
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 05:09:26 pm »
Here you go! 1.73 m3






A bit much for my jib!  :(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.