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Author Topic: Tree Identification Help  (Read 1241 times)

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Offline NeonZebraSpots

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Tree Identification Help
« on: July 21, 2017, 09:50:46 pm »
If anyone could help me identify this tree, I would greatly appreciate it. My German Shepherd has been jumping up and snagging these leaves right off the tree and EATING them. He's always had a few issues with diarrhea, watching him grabbing them made me wonder if it may be contributing to his poop situation.

I don't understand this website yet or how to upload photos but I did end up learning how to make a album and uploaded a few pictures to it for reference.

Here's the album link

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=8005

Offline Ianab

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 10:52:49 pm »
You have done the hard part with the pictures.

To get them in your post, just bring up the picture in your gallery and scroll down. Find the bit that says
"To use the above photo in a Forestry Forum post"
and find the text in the box below.
Code: [Select]
[img]http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46500/20170721_190831.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1500688379[/img]
Copy that into your post, and you get the picture.


Sorry I don't recognise the tree, but I'm sure someone will .

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Offline sandhills

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 09:06:11 am »
Welcome to the forum, sorry I can't help either but hang around someone will and you can probably get help diagnosing your dog as well  ;), this place has it all.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 09:46:56 am »
NeonZebraSpots.welcome to the forum.
Where are you located? It might be a tree not native to your area.
After a while the dog will not be able to reach the leaves. He will get all that he can reach.  ;D 
But saying that,might be something else going on to. Have you changed his food lately? Don't give him dairy product. We had a few problems with our dog when we started to feed her canned food.
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Offline NeonZebraSpots

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 01:25:36 pm »
I am from Denver Colorado area.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 01:36:32 pm »
Looks like hackberry to me.
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Online DPatton

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 09:25:22 pm »
Ditto on what LeeB said.
These are hackberry leaves currently in my back yard.

Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 08:18:23 am »
Mulberry.  Are the leaf upper surface rough like sand paper, or are they smooth?
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Offline timberking

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 09:38:40 am »
I think mulberry also just from the leaf.

Offline DelawhereJoe

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 10:51:36 am »
I've never seen a bunch of mulberry leave without some having some kinda lobe on it, all the mulberry trees we have around here don't have such a long point to the leaf. They are all shorter and most have lobes on them also the barks is a different color and don't grow as straight.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 07:42:50 pm »
Mulberry can be highly variable. 
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Offline bucknwfl

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 07:52:19 pm »
Yes they can and if I remember right if they are rough they are red and smooth is the white mulberry. WDH ??
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Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 09:06:46 pm »
Exactly.  White mulberry is not native, red mulberry is native.
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Offline NeonZebraSpots

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 07:22:18 pm »
I'm sorry I haven't checked here in a while. Thanks for all of the help. The leaves feel kind of like a peach, fuzzy. At some point in the year there are i guess bugs all over it because there's what looks like little cocoons on the leaves, very small ones though about half the size of a pea. Does that help with guesses? Thanks guys!

Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 07:59:35 pm »
Yes sir.  It is red mulberry.  If it is a girl tree, it will have edible berries on it.  If it is a boy, none. 
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Online DPatton

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 07:03:55 pm »
Alright guys pardon me for being stubborn but I'm not convinced yet ;). Best part is even if I'm wrong I'm learning something here :P. Looking at our profiles we are all from pretty different parts of the country and the variation in species can be remarkable.
 This post has got my curiosity so I've been looking at a few of my local Hackberry trees and Red Mulberry too. First I would really like to see a better pic from NeonZebra of the trunks and bark on those trees. The photo is not to clear but from what I see the bark pattern sure looks a lot more like Hackberry than Mulberry to me but a better photo would help.
 I have added photos of some leaf samples of both species from my local area for for argument sake ;D.
This 1st photo is of three different samples off of three different red mulberry trees. Like DelawhereJoe brought up one or two of the specimen has the lobes in the leaf as he described. When i looked at the three sample trees i could see the same lobed leaves on what looks like young new wood growth but the more mature limbs didn't typically show leaves with lobes. The mulberry leaves were also smoother with a more shiny surface than the hackberry leaves.

The 2nd image is leaf samples from three different local hackberry trees. They are typically more elongated than our local mulberry leaves with a thicker fuzzy surface on the top of the leaf. Also as NeonZebra mentioned the little half pea size cocoons, if your look at the bottom of the photo there are two single leaves turned upside down with the little half pea sized lump that is very common of out local hackberry.




Now I know there are a heck of a lot of guys on the site that know a lot more about trees than I will probably ever know and like I said before if I'm wrong at least I'm learning something from them. But I still think we are looking at hackberry leaves in the original post. One way to tell for sure NeonZebra is cut one down and take a look at the wood ;D ;D ;D!

Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2017, 07:50:42 pm »
If the leaves of the mulberry in your first pic are smooth, it is white mulberry, introduced from SE Asia for the silk trade.  Silk worms feed on mulberry leaves.  Red mulberry leaves are rough.  The botanical term is scabrous. 

If the original tree in question in this thread is mulberry, and you injure a small twig on a stem that has leaves on it, the sap will ooze out a milky white, and the bud on the twig is heart shaped. You may not be able to see the bud now as the tree is actively growing new leaves. 

Mulberry can have leaves of three shapes on the same tree, but sometimes there are not many of the lobed ones.  It varies a lot.  Hackberry leaves are very scabrous and a bit stiff.  The leaves in the original pic look like they have a different texture and do not appear to be that stiff.  A close-up of the bark will surely help.   
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Offline sandhills

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 02:11:45 pm »
OK stayed out of this debate long enough but as much as I'd hate to go against WDH I'm going to agree it's hackberry also.  We have all kinds of mulberry trees and hackberry, no offence intended one bit WDH but I'm going with DPatton on this one  ;).  I'm sure I'm wrong but around here that's what'd be.  :)

Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 08:13:20 pm »
After zooming in on the bark, it does not look typical for mulberry, so I am changing my opinion to concur with hackberry.

If it is hackberry, that will be only the second time that I was wrong today  :D.   
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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 09:40:31 pm »
You guys ever notice that the lessons you learn and remember best are the ones when you were in the wrong  :-\???  The lesson I learned today is I never knew the difference between a red or white mulberry  ::).  Guess where I'm from I was mislead to believe they were all red mulberry so like I said before there are a lot of people on this forum that know a heck of a lot more about trees than I do.
 WDH, I did some reading up on what you have said about the red and white mulberry. Your information is spot on from what I found. Thank you for helping me recognize the difference and hopefully I will properly identify them in the future ;D ;D ;D
 If you don't mind helping me learn  :P some more I have a couple questions about this post yet.

1, Do the red and white mulberry have similar or different wood color?
2, Also back to the original post NeonZebra talked about the little cocoons on the leaves. what are the little bumps or cocoons on the bottom of the hackberry leaves?
3, Do red mulberry get similar bumps or cocoons and what are they?

Thanks in advance!

Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 07:12:40 am »
The wood of white and red mulberry is very similar.  Both have the yellow heartwood and light colored sapwood. 

Hackberry and sugarberry commonly have insect galls on the leaves.  I have not seen them as prevalent in mulberry.  The buds on red mulberry twigs are heart shaped and sit just a little bit off to the side of the leaf scar.  Once you learn to recognize it, it is pretty distinctive. 
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Offline NeonZebraSpots

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 09:03:50 am »
I took more pictures of things that might be helpful for identification purposes.

*close up of bark
*close up of leaves - front and back
*I ripped it in half(there was no milky liquid)
*took a picture of the little bug things cocoon
*also tried to get a pic of the fuzziness of the leaf
     (it's pretty soft)

If you need more let me know. I'm just going to attach the album link again, it's easier than posting all of the pictures since I did upload around 8 more pictures. Thanks for everyone's help on this, you guys are great!  :laugh:  :)  :laugh:

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=8005

Offline LeeB

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 09:23:15 am »
Does it have any spines on it? Has it ever made a fruit or any small hard berries?
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Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 08:18:09 pm »
Curve ball!

Curve ball!

After seeing the additional pics, I have changed my opinion once again  :).  Looks more like an elm, probably red elm, also called slippery elm.  For the record, hackberry is in the elm family, so red elm and hackberry are kissing cousins.  The leaf bases in the elms are inequilateral, and I see some of that in the pics, but it is not as distinct as I normally see.  Also, the serrations on the leaf are more elm like.  The bark is a dead ringer for elm.  My money is on elm.   
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Online DPatton

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 12:21:50 am »
I did mention that I'm sometimes stubborn right ??? I'm also pretty sure I'm about to get schooled :P on this topic and find out I still don't know what I'm talking about :-\. However when I look at the additional photos I am even more convinced that the trees are hackberry and here are my reasons why I think so.

1, The bark in the photos although somewhat similar to our slippery elm because of the general pattern it is a dead ringer for our local hackberry. Especially for young imature hackberry such as the ones in the photo. It is knobby and more irregular in pattern than our elm. The bark is just the right color with matching thickness and layering like our local hackberry. Elm bark is also layered but not in the same way as our hackberry. If you look at files 6 of 12 and 8 of 12 you can see this layering in the individual chunks of bark.

2, the leaves are more elongated than our local elm leaves. Our elm leaves although typically more defined in serration than hackberry are more oval and not this elongated.

3, the cocoons or gall on the leaves visible in files 11 of 12 and 12 of 12. The under side of the leaves are covered with these little bumps. This is very typical of our hackberry and I see this on every hackberry tree I look at in these parts. I'm not accustom to seeing this on our local elm tree leaves.
 
NeonZebraSpots I noticed the other day that our local hackberries are currently setting on their little pea sized fruit. The berries are usually fairly sparce and grow toward the tips of the branches in groups of two. They are round, pea sized, olive drab to slightly brown in color currently with each berry attached to a single thin stem about 3/4" to 1" in length. The berries will vary in color as they ripen.



If your trees have these berries then they are indeed hackberry.

If your trees are elm they will produce round, dime sized, flat, Paper-like seeds.

Ok guys, now that I have opened my big mouth again 8) let the schooling :P begin!


Offline WDH

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 07:25:34 am »
DPatton,

I know that I am giving you a hard time, but I appreciate your persistence and the additional info that you shared.  It can be tough to ID plants from pictures, and I understand your point about the bark.  Bark can vary from one part of the country to the other.  Our hackberry (sugarberry) has bark that is more smooth with pronounced corky warts.  Our winged elm looks very much like the OP's pics, very much with the corky ridges on the bark.  But, in retrospect, the leaves are too big for winged elm, and the bark, while elmy, is not quite right for slippery elm in this area which does not exibit the extent of corkiness seen in the photo.

Well Sir, I am deferring to you.  I hope to meet a hackberry like that one day.
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Tree Identification Help
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 07:13:27 pm »
Isn't there a Southern and Northern Hackberry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtis_occidentalis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtis_laevigata

The difference is the Northern Hackberry doesn't eat grits.   :D ;D

Can't speak for Colorado, but the bark fits the Hackberry bark on our trees (Northern), except for the young and very old. 

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,95986.msg1480789.html#msg1480789

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