Legality of timber frame construction

[MbfVA]

check out the company, Timbersmiths.com and the other one, Dreaming Creek,  Powhatan County

[btulloh]

Interesting links.  I'm not familiar with Timbersmiths but it looks like they do some good work.  Dreaming Creek is only about five miles from me and I've been following their work.  They have really grown since they got started back in the early 90's and have quite a reputation now.  Either one looks like a good resource for you.

Dreaming Creek has a beamery in Floyd county, so you guys up there may know something about them. 

[Don P]

Here is the offending joist. The rafters in the top of the frame are actually up on another beam well above this joist. Notice the knot across the lower third of the joist.


Here it is from the other side, sorry my viewer is getting dark so I didn't get the shot centered well, that's it clipped in the top of frame with the next 2 joists below it in frame. You can see this knot is taking up basically the lower third of the beam. The bottom strap of good clear straight wood is completely missing, it significantly weakens the timber. There is no other call to make, pull it.

[MbfVA]

knot good...

Oh hush, somebody else wood have said it.

[jwilly3879]

As a Building Inspector I have found that because an Engineer has stamped the plans does not guarantee that that the design complies with code.

I have reviewed two different plans with design errors, the first specified undersized floor joist and the second had undersized rafters. The first was easy to resolve, a call to the engineer and the plans were corrected. The second involved too many people, a log home company and the buyer of the kit. Told the buyer that stamped plans were required so they called the company and Presto! stamped plans appeared. The company is based in the south and the home was delivered to northern NY. Unfortunately the Engineer, who was licensed in NY but residing in the south never looked at the snow load. I denied the building permit and all hell broke out. In order to use the designed rafters they needed to be doubled up and spaced 16" o.c. vs 24 o.c. The buyers argued I had to approve the design because they had been stamped ( at considerable cost to them) and when I asked who they would blame if their roof failed they saw my point. There still is a lawsuit over which party will pay the extra costs incurred.

Moral of the story - check and double check.

[Ianab]

Jwilly, this is what I meant about the inspector having the final say.

But you had valid grounds to not approve the plans. "Engineer has made a mistake" or "The plans aren't suitable for our climate / weather". We have similar standards for wind loading, so a plan that would be approved for my location likely wouldn't be approved for a hill over Wellington city where they would expect 100+ mph wind gusts.

You didn't just reject them on a whim, and if it ends up in court, you can explain to the judge why.

[MbfVA]

 Did that experience in the Adirondacks involve #1 lumber required?   this is probably a different issue since it didn't involve number grading,  I realize upon reflection. Of course the same thing could happen in the opposite direction, building inspector could approve the plans only by requiring something the engineer found to be in error because, for example, he or she did not understand the type of building.   A builder with 43 years experience in our area told me this morning that he struggled to make our county inspector understand a very unique timber frame home that he was building, complicated by the fact that a timber company from Vermont put it up, the frame that is,  with help from his laborers.

an aside: the timber frame company promised to send a crew.  instead, they sent one person, who then asked for help from the builder, the laborers. They had no experience and no clue, no wonder the cost started rolling up. This the general contractor admitted.

[MbfVA]

 Harvey shook me up back telling me the cost of building just the timber frame, for a 2500 square-foot house, over $100,000 parts and labor. He felt a lot of the cost was engendered by parties involved who didn't understand things; he  admitted being part of that.   I think a lot of it was transportation cost Vermont to Virginia. Ask me why  I want to cut my own wood.

my apologies for my mushing these two posts together

[MbfVA]

 A quick note to Ian:  wind loading is becoming an issue for inland US as well.  I am told the BOCA code has over only fairly recent years been in revision to "load" (no pun intended) all buildings with increased hurricane protection requirements, especially with regard to roofing.

I can relate on a personal level. The eye of hurricane Isabel passed directly over our house in 2003, and we are well over 100 miles from the coast.  Fortunately we lost only trees and some minor damage to our house and our rental property next to our historic log cabin restaurant.

[Don P]

Bracing requirements on buildings have certainly tightened up with each code cycle. In the late 90's BOCA, SBCCI and the Uniform code all morphed into the current set of nationwide international codes, the "I" codes. If stick framing a residence you generally fall under the IRC, int'l residential code. This is a prescriptive code that "prescribes" approved methods and means that do not require engineering. When part or all of the building falls outside of those prescribed methods those portions fall under the IBC, the building code, which is basically "engineering required".... late to work, again  :D

[MbfVA]

You have another job?  Too bad you can't get paid for your posts,  organized and well thought out as they always are .  I, for one and certainly not the only one, appreciate the help 🌲😎.

[Don P]

Thanks, hopefully you can sidestep some of the mistakes I've made along the way if I'm open with them and their lessons. It was a long one today. We made a replacement beam for that oopsed one and sawed out a white oak sill this morn then back to the woods and dropped a couple of red oaks for top plates. One had quite the crown, it was 7:30 before we got that cleaned up and out of the woods. If the weather holds tomorrow we'll start chainsaw milling that into a 40' 10x12.

  When the engineer goes to analyze your frame, he will use material properties for the wood you are using.  Sometimes, for simplicity, he'll use properties for the weakest wood you are using.  For example a frame where white oak, mixed oak, walnut, and beech are used, the engineer did his calculations using the properties of the beech. 

As a Building Inspector I have found that because an Engineer has stamped the plans does not guarantee that that the design complies with code.
...
Moral of the story - check and double check.

Exactly, double check one another;
I've been sort of waiting to see if this raised a flag with anyone. Brad put up a little test there. This is one of the reasons why even if you aren't the engineer, an understanding of basic engineering and the materials you are using is important, more so when you stray from typical construction.  Look up the design values of the species in the post above. The inspector probably isn't going to catch something like this. It is up to the carpenter to know his materials and catch that.

An engineer friend who is now retired would sometimes stop at the jobsite to check on me and visit. If he invited me to dinner it was a good idea to take him up on it... I had an education filled evening coming and his wife is an awesome chef.

[MbfVA]

 When we get our timber frame build underway (or b4), Don, come for a visit and I promise you an awesome meal, though I'll let someone else fix it, at our restaurant 🍗🍗🐓🐓🐔🐔