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Frozen Logs!!  Charge more or Not????

Started by Back40x2, December 22, 2004, 02:16:00 PM

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Back40x2


Just started a job today.  Fir, Spruce, and White Pine.  They are all frozen!!! :o >:(   I have never sawed frozen wood, and can honestly say that I am not real crazy about it. >:(  I have a TK1600 that will normally cut thru anything I put up there. 8)  I never would have thought that a frozen fir log would cut harder then an oak or maple. :o  My question is "Should I charge more because they are frozen, or stick to my word".  There is about 6000bf, which would normally take me about 4-5 days to cut by myself.  I sawed for 5 hours today and only cut about 500bf.  I am loosing money, which is no fun either!  >:(
  
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!!! ;)
My JD 4120 Loader/Hoe/fransgard winch, a 10,000 pound Warn winch, STIHL 460,  Timberking 1600,  Lots of logs, a shotgun, rifle, my German Shorthaired Pointers and a 4-wheel drive, is all this Maine boy needs to survive!! Oh Yeah, and my WIFE!!!!!!

Captain

Pete,  I'll let the band sawyers better answer your question, but personally I like frozen logs and do not charge more.  No water necessary, no pitch buildup, and cut just as well as non frozen stuff.  I've got a couple of guys in the area that can help you out if you need it.

Captain

Plowboy

I've not had a lot of experience with frozen logs but on my Woodmizer they recomend using double hard blades for frozen logs.  I bet someone with more experience can tell you more.  

EZ

I would rather saw pine when its frozen, it saws alot better and I can run the carriage faster threw it. You have to keep the mud and ice off of the bark where the blade go threw. That frozen mud is like rocks.
EZ

Kevin_H.

You might try a different blade, Woodmizer offers there "Frozen Wood" blade in a 9 and 4 degree hook, I am sure the other blade people do the same...

As far as charging more, well if you already quoted a price I dont see how you can change it now...as long as the log owner didnt do anything to push you into the cold weather.

I would have to chalk it up to a learning exp. and bump up the quote on the next frozen job.
Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

Brad_S.

I second EZ's statement. If I can, I save the snotty, knotty spruce and red pine till they're frozen, decrease the set on the blades ( I keep the 10 degree angle) and have at them. Much easier to cut straight in frozen spruce, it's the half frozen, half thawed logs that cause problems. Like EZ said, mud turns into concrete even a debarker has trouble dealing with.
My opinion is a deal is a deal. It's not the customers fault the logs are frozen. Only exception I would make is if they are muddy, then maybe add a surcharge for time you spend debarking with an axe or spud.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Minnesota_boy

Once you've quoted a price, you're stuck with it unless the customer volunteers to raise it.  Frozen wood does saw slower but not by much if your blade is sharpened properly.  Frozen mud doesn't saw at all.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Percy

If you made a deal, you should stick by it in my opinion. If there is a time line(meaning you may not get it done on time) tell the customer about your pridicament. If he is willing to wait for better weather, that might be an option but let him call the shots as the little you lose on this 6000bdft will be small compared to the losses a bad rep/word of mouth can get ya. Just be strait forward and honest with  your customer about the the situation and Im sure you can come up with an agreement satisfactory for both of you. If not, like Kevin said, Chalk it up to learning. The goodwill you get from honoring your contract will pay off huge in self respect if nothing else. Im betting your customer will sympathize with you. ;D ;D ;D
Merry Christmas
Percy
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

leweee

check out this thread just below titled "sawing ash" some good tips on frozen wood in it ;D
knowledge is power....out smart that frozen wood    don't  over charge for it. ;D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Bibbyman

I agree with Percy.  

My Dad told me many a time "You got to learn to take the good with the bad."  I thought it was good advice with things went well.  Not so go when they went bad.

We owe having one of our best customers because we took on a job we knew we weren't going to get much return for our time and effort.  Another mill passed on helping him.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

raycon

Call the woodmizer rep in Augusta Maine. We just had this conversation yesterday morning (milling frozen pine,fir,hemlock). He was telling me that he expected the cants to be frozen solid through and through in about two weeks till then it was band selection day by day.  I can't repeat what he said in a hundred words or less definitely  worth the call I'm going to try and visit with him next week to pick his brain and hopefully bring back  a mill  -- seeing has how it went from 5 degrees F to 55 in a few days I'm back to milling thawed logs.  

I don't notice any decrease in speed(slow vs a little slower) frozen vs thawed. The in between state is when the odd stuff happens.


Lot of stuff..

Ron Wenrich

I don't know about the band mills, but the half frozen stuff causes fits with the circle rigs.  You're sawing through 2 different kinds of wood at the same time.  Sawdust can freeze on the side of the log or board and push your saw.  

After everything is frozen, then there isn't as much of a problem.  

You'll also have problems when the logs start to thaw in the spring.  Ones laying on the ground will be frozen on one side and not the others.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Engineer

I think I started or continued a thread about this very same subject last March.  

What I found is that 4 degree hook blades, reduced set, very clean logs, slow and CONSISTENT feed rate and NO blade lube were what worked.  I also found that I had to switch out blades, if I didn't hit anything nasty like rocks or frozen knots, at least once a day and usually more.  That was for less than a thousand BF/day production.

VA-Sawyer

I ran into this problem last Jan.  Bad news is that you really shouldn't raise your price. Good news is that you can help yourself a lot by using a hot water pressure washer. It would probably pay to rent one if you don't have one. I know it saved me on a 7000 bf job. I was about ready to tell the owner I couldn't do the job, and he was about ready to tell me to move on. We both ended up happier after we started using the pressure washer. Just make sure it is the HOT water kind.
VA-Sawyer

beenthere

The hot water will knock the ice off the surface of the log, but won't change the temperature of the wood by much. If frozen mud and bark is the problem for the blade, then pressure washing with hot water will (should) be a big help. Takes time to freeze the wood inside the log, and takes time to thaw it out. Just FYI, IMO.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

EZ

I use my old chainsaw with an old chain on it to remove the ice and frozen mud. I run it along where the mill blade is going to go threw. Works for me and it dont take that long.
EZ

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