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Unexpected Benefit

Started by Cedar Eater, April 11, 2002, 08:37:07 PM

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Cedar Eater

I signed an agreement with a forester a couple of weeks ago and I've discovered an unexpected benefit. Two neighbors, whom I didn't even know were loggers approached me separately about "cuttin' yer trees fer ya". :o One wanted my cedars and spruces and the other wanted my aspens. I told them both that I was consulting a forester and they both mumbled "coulda saved ya 15 percent" and asked to be put on the bidders list. Whew! Two possible feuds avoided. :) :) :)
Cedar Eater

Bud Man

I'da put em on the bidder's list and taken em down in the woods and discussed some pricing, might of rolled a stump up on em.  :o  Your Michiganders sure put up with rogue loggers in a gentile sort of way.
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

RavioliKid

That's our state motto:

If you seek a gentile peninsula, look about you. :D

(Pinkies extended, of course!)
RavioliKid

Jeff

There is an ornament in the ornament auction with that saying in latin on it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bud Man

We have trees down here on bout every section line crossing ( some 150 + years old) and they were originally meant to mark boundaries but have various usages. Sounds like ya'll might have cut all yours down, what a shame !!   :o  Plus these rogue loggers don't understand Latin, but do know the Smell Of Tar Heating Up.
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Cedar Eater

I don't know what I said to make you think they were "rogue loggers".  ;D It's not like they're sneaking in and cutting down the trees during new moons. They're just decent local folks interested in helping me avoid all the expense of contracts and advertising and especially that durn consultant's fee. ::) As a matter of fact, both of them have southern accents so I'm certain that they only had my best interests in mind :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I don't fault them for trying to make a buck, but I sure don't want a situation like the one Taken talks about in the general forum complicated by the fact that they're my neighbors. With all the hunting we all do around here, I don't need any bad blood added to the fact that I'm not home grown in this area. My point was just that by saying I'm working with a forester, they know that it's pointless to play the "friendly neighbor" game when it comes to my trees.

Cedar Eater

Jeff

Tell em Cedar, some how he thinks we have cut all our trees down too. :D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bud Man

Cedar Eater,  I'll let you be the judge whether their friendly neighbor's or not, they just sound like foxes circling the hen house probing for weaknesses or holes in the fences to me . :o  All this talk of everybody getting taken by these friendly local logger folks who are able to avoid contracts and saving woodlot owners a few bucks with all of their expertice leads to all these horror stories that keep surfacing.  The fact that you contracted with a consulting Forester, at least once,  has put the word out that you can't be had by the local bottom feeders that prey on the unwary and uninformed.  A lot of times it's necessary to use a Professional Service ( Attorney-Guide -Forester) to acquire the pertinent information to watch for and be informed about.  Kinda like fishing a new area, I always get a guide the first time to show me the local lay of things and after that I'm not oblivious to the norms of an area or a situation. Yea it cost a few dollars, but it's money well spent and once a person understands the required knowledge to avoid expensive and disatrous consequences associated with ignorance he's the better off for having spent the few dollars for the education, for whatever the endeavour. As far as these loggers sneaking around by the light of the moon, these characters operate at midday on your front porch and eyeball to eyeball with little concern of recourse by the owners. They know the laws and use them in their favor, it's the new owners that are ignorant that get their clocks cleaned by these well meaning concerned friendly local neighbors with this abundance of knowledge that they are so willing to share with the unknowing !!
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Ron Wenrich

I'll put my 2 cents in about loggers and foresters.

Here in the northeast, it doesn't take a whole lot to become a logger.  The investment is pretty small, if you are using used equipment.  This will allow rogues into the business.  But, that doesn't mean that all loggers with used equipment are rogues.   Most are honest businessmen.

Loggers will "save the landowner 15%", but, that wouldn't necessarily be reflected in their bid price.  The honest ones will use contracts, mark the timber, pay cash up front, and have insurance.  It is up to the landowner to check out the credentials.

Consultants charging 15% to sell sawtimber is way too much, IMO.  In many cases, the consultant will make more than the logger.  I've seen cherry sell for upwards of $3/bf on the stump.  I can't see where their services are worth $450/Mbf.  Most sales in my area are running about $450/Mbf.  Consultants are getting $65/Mbf to mark trees.  In good timber, you can get $2500/day or better per man.  Pays for a lot of downtime.

That doesn't mean that a consultant shouldn't get a good wage, but pinning your earnings to the price of timber is not a good practice.  I've seen too many slash for cash deals that a consultant called good management.  I've also seen them by-pass low quality wood because they couldn't make a buck at marking the timber.  These are the jobs that are crying for management.

A better method of charging for services are either a $/hr or $/Mbf figure.  It gets rid of the temptation to mark for your pocketbook.

Landowners should have an independent forester mark and estimate their timber, at a minimum.  That levels the playing field for all potential buyers.  Marking should be done at a $/Mbf basis.  Consultants should be used in the bidding process, contract negotiations, and job inspections on a $/hr basis.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bud Man

Well said Ron, wolves in sheep's clothing have many titles included within are Woodlot Owners, Loggers, and some Foresters.  It's a buyer's beware world and the informed are the well armed to offset the predators !  Contracts protect everybody concerned and should include all aspects before, during,  and after the harvest.  The injured aren't always the innocent, but almost always are the uninformed and lazy or greedy ones !  
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Frank_Pender

Geee Whizzzz, All of the consulting I do is for nothing.  :'( Am I missing something?  :P Nope!  8) 8) I simply enjoy helping people get the best deal  they can for what it is they have to market.  ;)  And,if I am unable,I will  find those that can provide the better deal.  I must be a sheep ing a wolf's coat.  Or, is it the other way around, wolf's coat in a sheeps skin. 8) 8)
Frank Pender

Ron Scott

Yes, one needs to check out the Consulting Foresters also. There are those running around saying they are  Consulting Foresters and they are only "Timber Buyers" after your quality wood only. Check if the consultant is a certified, registered, licensed forester. This sets the minimum qualifications acceptable.

Get references, check their other or ongoing jobs, etc. There are those that are just after the timber. Get one that knows ecosystem management and manages timber as part of the ecosystem. Your other land and resource values need to be recognized. Ask questions about your property's "nonmonitary"  values as well as timber, such as soil, air, water, wildlife, recreation, willderness. What kind of answers do you get?

If a consultant is charging 15% commission he should be working to improve the timber stand for the future and increasing the landowner's future timber values over time for another harvest in 10-15 years, not setting the timber stand back 100  years. Every 10-15 years the landowner and consultant (if he is hired back) will be having ongoing income from quality timber management. Those paid by the hour or MBF can cut and run also.

It depends upon how much time and care a consultant will spend to do a quality job. Do they look at every tree?? Many landowners can't afford a consultant by the hour if the consultant's time is well spend marking & harvesting the "worst first", designating wildlife den, snag, cavity, mast trees, locating road and skid route access, landing & processing sites, etc. Also if the consultant covers all costs of travel time, marking paint, computer time, printing, bid mailings, contract preparation, performance bond, liability and workmen's comp insurances, sales administration during the harvest period, etc.

A consultant should prepare the timber for sale according to the best ecological silvicultural prescription to meet the landowners objectives practicing "good" forestry. This takes time to do.

Be ware of the "Consultant" that looks at your timber today and wants to start "cutting" tomorrow. There will always be the argument whether to pay a consultant on a commission of the timber value received or by the hour.

A landowner should find that the 15% commission paid to a "professional" Consulting Forester was the best investment they ever made in their woodland. I would have liked to have managed many of the timber stands before they were "hammered" by other so called consultants/loggers. Most need to be restructured for the future so we're often working with lower timber values after the high gradings and excesive tree damages took place.  

~Ron

Cedar Eater

I agree a little bit with everybody who's responded here and I disagree a little bit, too.

I can't necessarily agree that a logger who offers an unsolicited bid and seeks to avoid contracts is always a rogue. The landowner bears part of the responsibility for not being better informed. "Let the seller beware" is better than "Let's regulate everything". I think it's like seeing a car in somebody's driveway and offering to buy it for a certain price. If the seller agrees, then fine. The seller need not be aware that the buyer can turn a profit with low risk simply because the buyer understands the market better. I draw the line for "rogue" at those who make promises and then don't follow through. There can be advantages to both sides when boths sides deal in good faith and exclude third parties, contracts and bid process expenses. If these neighbors build a rapport with me, I might eventually be willing to do a handshake deal and I hope that day comes. Since that rapport hasn't been built in either case, I'm glad I'm buying a reasonably trustable level of performance.

I can't agree that 15% is too much for a consultant's commission. Sometimes it might be, but in my case, the acreage is low (<20 acres), there's no cherry or walnut or even sugar maple. There's probably no veneer. Except for legwork in the trees and calculator keystrokes, the consultant will do almost as much work for my property as he would do for a much larger property with much higher value timber. Preparing bid and contract packages has fixed components that are the same for 5 acres as they are for 1000 acres. Let the buyer and seller of consulting services be reasonable. In my case, I won't argue the 15%, but I'll be a P.I.T.A. until I feel I've gotten my money's worth. If I don't feel I've gotten my money's worth, the consulant will not be invited to look at my other opportunities. OTOH, If I owned a really large property with a lot of high value timber, I would go out for bid on consulting services. What's sauce for the goose...

I like the idea that a friendly forester will consult for nothing, but there's that old adage that you get what you pay for. After my consultant marks the timber and explains the sale to my satisfaction, I'm going to consult another neighbor who's a retired forester. Hopefully, he'll review the first forester's work and offer his opinions. The agreement I have with the first forester gives me an expectation of performance that I couldn't hold an unpaid consultant to. My unpaid retired neighbor forester is just for a second opinion and my own due diligence. I'll owe him a favor if he does this for me and I'm comfortable with that. Trading favors between neighbors is a time honored tradition.

I would like to be able to know for sure that I picked the right consultant, but I don't think I could know without first getting years of education which would then alleviate the need for a consultant. I currently can't look at another job and tell from that whether the consultant did good work. I'm not sure I can tell whether the consultant's references are bogus, equally or more ignorant than me or irrelevant. What I can do and have done is segmented my needs for consultant services and I will give my forester a chance to earn more opportunities by earning more trust on the first job.

I've also isolated a section of my property for me to practice what the forester preaches. It's an area that was clearly abused by past harvesting practices and should provide decent lumber for my projects. It has a predominantly red maple overstory and a predominantly balsam fir understory, but it has significant red oak, aspen and beech that I think I can release. If I fail, the damage will be minimal.
Cedar Eater

Bud Man

Cedar Eater , Somehow I don't believe you're gonna get took, you know what you know and know what you don't know. Your paying some dues and taking good notes, that's an education you can't get in too many classrooms.  The school of hardknocks is expensive and sometimes painful, with lasting memories.  Proceed with caution until It feels right, your smart to start on a small scale and work up. If It works there then just magnify the efforts !!  "Continue To March "
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Jeff

Here is an example of a landowner that is doing it right. Knowledge is a wonderful thing, it will chase away most of the potential unwanted elements that could otherwise enter a timber sale.  It scares off the dishonest and keep's the honest working.

If every Landowner approached his land management the way Carl is, this industry would have very few "Rogues" left to deal thier  damage.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

As you point out, the 15% commission is a good deal for you.  My point is simply this, it costs the same to mark 1000 bf of cherry as it does 1000 bf of scrub oak, given the same type of conditions.  

I've marked stands where I lost money at 15% and where I've made outrageous amounts.  That's when I figured out that the landowners with good timber were subsidizing me to mark landowners with poor timber.  I worked all tracts, while others diregarded the poorer tracts.  When I went to a marking fee/Mbf, I got rid of the personal feelings of how I treated my clients.  I got paid for what I knew and what I did, not how much money I could generate.

All in all, it sounds like you're doing things right.  You'll do OK.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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