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Author Topic: Sick of 353, change to perkins  (Read 2051 times)

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Offline mf2200treever

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Sick of 353, change to perkins
« on: June 26, 2017, 09:33:43 am »
I'm not a mechanic but fairly inclined for the backyard lol. I'm contemplating swapping my 353 for a perkins 4.236 in my 664c after the bell and mounting will my torque converter still be ok.

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 06:35:58 pm »
the detroit tractors have a high stall converter. around 1900-20000rpm i believe. this the reason why i didn't go to cummins. others have done it and say it works fine. i would check specs on the perkins, if it runs up 2-2500 it may work. remember you will need a flywheel that will accept the drive gear.

Offline deastman

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 09:11:48 pm »
I swapped out a 4-53T Detroit for a 6BT Cummins once in a Clark 667 grapple skidder. I had to fabricate new motor mounts, air intake piping and a few other things.  Had to change the bellhousing but didn't touch the transmission or torque converter and it worked great, made it a whole different skidder. With the Detroit you had to almost floor it to get it moving but with the Cummins just crack it above idle and it was on its way and pulled so much easier. Must have been the difference in the torque curves of the engines but it would pull harder and at half the rpm of the Detroit
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Offline bushmechanic

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 09:06:47 pm »
I don't think that you will be happy with that switch. We used to have several Timberjack 217 skidders all with 4.236 Perkins engines and they all gave out in the crankshafts/ connecting rods. We replaced them with 353's and never had any more issues. If you don't like the 353 I would go with a Cummins 4BT or a John Deere 4045T, but the Deere will be harder on fuel. 

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 09:33:17 pm »
What are the issues with the 3-53 Detroit?
If you search through this message board you will find this topic discussed on a few occasions.
One of the suggestion if keeping a naturally aspirated 3-53, was to mildly turbocharge and put on better mufflers if noise reduction was a goal.

There are 2 valve common rail versions of the John Deere 4045T available, depending on auto-electrical skills around, the 4045T common rail would likely be an expensive engine to fit to an old skidder, but it should have a bit of power and fuel economy. I have heard of common rail diesel engines being fitted to older machines for fuel saving and power increase reasons but it was expensive by the time new diesel tank fabrication, mounting, new diesel system filtration required for common rail diesel upgrades were completed.

https://www.deere.ca/assets/pdfs/common/industries/engines-and-drivetrain/specsheets/4045HF285_C.pdf   (115hp JD 4.5 fixed turbo)

Offline Mountain_d

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 06:32:53 am »
A question about the 4BT. I have a 230 TJ with a 4B Cummins (not turbo charged). Can someone tell me the HP rating for a 3.9 L 4B?
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Offline g_man

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 07:17:24 pm »
I have a non-turbo 239 (3.9L) cummins in my little TD7G dozer. It is listed as 70 hp the way it is set up.

gg

Offline Spartan

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 08:49:51 pm »
I would think a turbo 353 would be the cats meow for that thing.

Offline dgdrls

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 11:03:12 am »
agree with Spartan. makes the package easier, you should see a nice gain in power and easy parts availability

D

Offline mf2200treever

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2017, 02:08:10 pm »
The issue is the head and governing system I'm having trouble with moisture and each time I try something, something else goes wrong. So the head will be going out to be tested but now the governor is sticking and it's not the injectors or rack it's in the governor itself.

Offline Spartan

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 02:36:34 pm »
Checking the head will rule out cracks, warpage, and weather your injector tubes are leaking so thats good.
Check the liner o-rings as well, better yet just replace them while the head is off.

Did you bend or jam the pushrod to the fuel rack?
They are pretty simple.
Take the cover of of it and work it by hand to see where the friction is.  They can also stick if you don't have the rack set right.

The thing about detroits are they are really hearty.  But they don't like heat.
We have one in a 69 Pacer 300 grader (a 4-71).  The thing has never been replaced.  Ungodly number of hrs on it (well over 30,000), runs diesel for oil, head is cracked and leaks diesel as well.  We can't blow it up and it runs hard.
Also, the detroits are super easy to work on in my opinion.

yeah, the noise sucks.


Offline mf2200treever

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 08:10:14 pm »
Just looked at the governor again and it seems to be fine is it possible that my dad put the throttle linkage in the wrong spot that would cause it to hold in the full throttle position and not respond. Thank you all for you're input so far.

Offline crazy4saws

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 10:15:54 pm »
What are the issues with the 3-53 Detroit?
If you search through this message board you will find this topic discussed on a few occasions.
One of the suggestion if keeping a naturally aspirated 3-53, was to mildly turbocharge and put on better mufflers if noise reduction was a goal.

There are 2 valve common rail versions of the John Deere 4045T available, depending on auto-electrical skills around, the 4045T common rail would likely be an expensive engine to fit to an old skidder, but it should have a bit of power and fuel economy. I have heard of common rail diesel engines being fitted to older machines for fuel saving and power increase reasons but it was expensive by the time new diesel tank fabrication, mounting, new diesel system filtration required for common rail diesel upgrades were completed.

https://www.deere.ca/assets/pdfs/common/industries/engines-and-drivetrain/specsheets/4045HF285_C.pdf   (115hp JD 4.5 fixed turbo)

Riwaka, just curious as I have a natural 3-53 I'll be rebuilding soon. I've read about building baffled mufflers but what do you mean by mildly turbocharged?
Thank you.

Offline Spartan

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 07:03:40 am »
Just looked at the governor again and it seems to be fine is it possible that my dad put the throttle linkage in the wrong spot that would cause it to hold in the full throttle position and not respond. Thank you all for you're input so far.

Yes

If you set the injectors wrong in setting up the rack it can also do that.  Or if the pushrod got bent somehow.
Download the manual for the 53 series engines, you can find it for free.
There is a section in there on setting the governor and the rack.  If its not done right it can stick or run away on you.

Theres a check list to go through and a specific order, but don't worry about it until you get the head on.  It will need to be running to set the governor.

Or hire a pro to do it.  I couldnt afford that so I had to learn.

Offline mf2200treever

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 10:08:18 am »
I do have a manual I just haven't spent a ton of time figuring out which governor I have. It has a lot of different ones in the manual

Offline pdxh20

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2017, 08:25:13 pm »
A little more fat on the fire: I bought a 1975 IH S-8 with a 3-53 natural a few months ago that the guy left the air filter housing off of for several years in western WA. over 4 gals of h2o in the engine, freeze-thaw, only casualty was the bottom lobe of the blower which cracked when it froze. Bought a spare seized engine for $300 for parts and rebuilt the blower, put a 5' pipe wrench on the pulley and broke it free. After replacing the injectors, setting the valves and injector timing and bleeding the fuel system, she started right up. Very little smoke, 60LB oil pressure at idle, so far so good 8)

A noisy beast to be sure, but easy to work on and parts are cheap and available...
'56 American crawler crane, Komatsu mini-ex, multiple Stihl saws, '75 IH S-8 cable skidder, 2000 F450 30' bucket truck, '95 Chev 4 x 4 2500 p/u, '05 Sprinter SHC 2500 van

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2017, 05:48:24 pm »
60lb of oil pressure at idle? When at operating temp I don't think I've ever seen a Detroit make more that 8 to 10lb
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Offline coxy

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2017, 06:01:57 pm »
most don't get that high  but iv seen a few but after it runs a bit they will drop 

Offline mf2200treever

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2017, 06:58:57 pm »
Mine is up there at start up even with the problems I've had and drops after it's warm. It's just really frustrating me because it still runs great. I just have to figure out the details.

Offline coxy

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Re: Sick of 353, change to perkins
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2017, 09:14:31 pm »
isn't there shims or a bigger spring you put in/under the oil pump to make it pump more pressure I know there is something you can do but forgot