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Big Slabs: Sales and handling

Started by jemmy, June 23, 2017, 10:44:34 PM

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TKehl

I'm a fan of capitalism.  I'm not convinced it is the perfect system, but I haven't seen any that function better.  I also emulate the Amish & Mennonites.  They often build synergystic business around each other that frequently help the individuals as well as the group as a whole.  I'll happily hire out or refer work that is better suited for a bandmill.  Hopefully the other guy does as well.  If I'm milling for a welder, guess who gets the first bid when I need something fabbed up.  In the end, we both win.   

The wood industry is a big pie.  I can't (and don't want to) take it all.  A little piece of a big pie is enough for me and I'm happy to share.  I'm happy to offer the limited knowledge I have to get someone started.  I'm also happy to ask prodding questions that make a person consider if the path is really right for them.  This isn't a get rich quick kind of place with tons of trade secrets. 

I'll gladly pay for information.  Sometimes that is in $, sometimes labor, sometimes favors, sometimes other info, and sometimes I get it free with which I try to pay it forward when I can. 

We can have capitalism and still mostly get along and help each other out. 
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

red

I thought most of the Wood business was run by Gentleman .  Naturally there are a few bad apples .
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Jeff

Jemmy, I want to welcome you to the Forestry Forum. As the founder, i certainly disagree with the notion that sharing information about the trades we have passion for somehow weakens you.  Bull puckey!  It makes you stronger. When you have quality people doing quality work making quality products, the demand for all only goes up. 

I was one of those guys that was thrown into a job as a circle sawyer with no one to mentor me. I eventually figured it out, but craved knowledge abut what I was doing. I eventually found books, and a saw doctor named Willard Lafave, who would answer anything I asked. I wanted to be good at what I did. No, not just good, I wanted to be great. My Boss never gave me adulation past a raise now and then and a job for 25 years. Years went by and then I started getti g phone calls at night. Turns out, my Boss had been telling people that he felt he had the best sawyer in the state. the word spread and other young sawyers were calling me for help. I never hesitated in answering the questions they had. I never once felt that I would somehow be lessened by giving of myself.  I can't imagine feeling any other way. what a selfish way to live that would be.

Jemmy, take from this topic the fact that there are people in this world that help for one reason. Because they can. The Forestry Forum is full of this kind of people. We welcome you.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

petefrom bearswamp

I have 3 dozen cherry and a few maple slabs 2 3 thick 8 10 long on which I am going to get wealthy.
They are from blow downs from my woods.
As regards helping the competition, My neighbor saws portable and a little stationary for a living.
I am a somewhat high functioning hobby guy.
I refer calls for custom sawing to him, last night was the most recent.
I dont know if my knowledge is worth sharing but I do answer  questions and share experience when I can.
there are several Amish mills not very far away, but I still manage to market my more expensive product without too much trouble.

Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Bruno of NH

I decided a couple of weeks ago i was no longer going to post about selling slabs.
When i do its the only time i sense some negativity from some members on the forum.
Every mills markets are different .
Every person i have asked a question on the forum has been great to me.
I bug Peter a lot and we live not far from each other and i share info with other mill in my area on FB
Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Peter Drouin

Ya, your a bug. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Hi Bruno,  smiley_wavy
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

losttheplot

Quote from: tule peak timber on July 05, 2017, 07:40:21 PM
It is Wednesday and I have had one contractor and one engineer want to work with me for free to learn so far since Sunday. Tomorrow I have an extremely talented young woodworker who sought me out and wants an hour of my time to seek employment as he has already sent his resume. 30 minutes after he leaves, I have an instructor from one of the woodworking colleges coming here. So, it is Wednesday and that is the count so far of people who want to know what the heck I am doing.


Perhaps its time to start offering classes for money.
Capitalize on the opportunity............... :) :) :)
 
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

Bruno of NH

Peter
I'm the heavy weight of bugs :)
But getting smaller by the months :)
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

paul case

Quote from: Jeff on July 06, 2017, 08:13:51 AM
Jemmy, I want to welcome you to the Forestry Forum. As the founder, i certainly disagree with the notion that sharing information about the trades we have passion for somehow weakens you.  Bull puckey!  It makes you stronger. When you have quality people doing quality work making quality products, the demand for all only goes up. 

I never hesitated in answering the questions they had. I never once felt that I would somehow be lessened by giving of myself.  I can't imagine feeling any other way. what a selfish way to live that would be.

Jemmy, take from this topic the fact that there are people in this world that help for one reason. Because they can. The Forestry Forum is full of this kind of people. We welcome you.

Bull Puckey indeed. If it weren't for this forum I doubt I would be sawing today.
Well said Boss.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Darrel

As I see it, the big boys, Sierra Pacific, Weyerhaeuser, and others that supply dimensional lumber nation and world wide, are the only ones that have anything to loose secondary to the proliferation of knowledge and the thriving of untold thousands of little one and two man operations.

For the most part what comes off our mills, be it slabs, grade lumber, dimensional lumber for framing or whatever it may be, is of much higher quality than anything the big boys produce.

If we continue to pool our knowledge and skills, if we are willing to combine that knowledge and skills with hard work and good old fashioned elbow grease, we can give them a run for their money. They (the big boys) have spent billions of $$$$$$$ tooling their operations for high volume output of a product that is only marketable to the masses because there is nothin better available.  They do not have the capability of producing a product of a quality that you and I produce on a daily basis. 

So is it time for us to also pool our marketing?  I don't know. Maybe it is for some and not others. Who cares if some joker tries to sell slabs with a 25% moisture content as dry, he will shortly mend his ways or be gone.

Ok, I'll step down from my soap box.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

longtime lurker

I'm a believer in "commercial in confidence ".

A lot of my knowledge/experience i share freely. I think it's important to do so: I'd rather help than hinder people, and if i know something that works/ doesn't work  then im happy to share it.

But that doesn't mean i share everything. Some things i share selectively: how i manage collapse prone species is an in house thing that I've paid much to master, so i pitand choose who gets the benefit of that. Consider it like a patent: i put time and money in and need to see a return for that and giving it away to my competitors would make that difficult. But if i know ya and like ya i can bend the rules.

Truth is most people are lazy. Between us all here you could learn enough to run a mill successfully but it still won't replace sweat in growing a business. So i dont feel that sharing 99% of what i know will benifit more than 1% of the people who read it anyway.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

thecfarm

And than there people who are looking for a certain answer,be it right or wrong. They have no inclination to listen to you,but they have to ask anyways. I get them in my hardware store. Yes,their way may work,but they have to ask me what I would do and than try to change it the way would do it.  ::)  I just sell them what they want,they are happy and I am too because I am selling them something to keep me in a job.   ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

grouch

Quote from: Chop Shop on July 05, 2017, 09:30:58 PM
I don't expect Ford or Gm to GIVE me a truck for free.  If I think they offer a good product for a fair price then I buy their product which is made from their experience/knowledge in the auto industry.

That's the first I've heard of anyone suggesting Ford or GM giving you a truck for free. Your straw man won't stand on its own.

I haven't considered their products to be good or fairly priced for a long time, but I don't see how your opinion or mine on that matter has anything to do with the discussion of whether or not to share knowledge.

Quote
Unfortunately I cant pay my mortgage and insurance with good intentions and free labor.

Another straw man, no more strongly constructed than the former:

Good intentions don't get logs to the mill, sawn to a useful shape, dried without unacceptable defects, processed into a product someone is willing to swap money for, nor do they locate those who want such a product and are willing to pay for it.

Free labor usually involves a person or person who cares about someone enough to give up some of their life time -- the one and only thing each of us truly owns -- to help out.

These have little to do with passing on information to someone seeking it.

Quote
I expect to get paid for my work/product and have no problem paying others for theirs.   If the product is good and the price is fair then everyone is happy.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Quote
What you are referring to sounds an awful lot like socialism.   This country was built and thrives on capitalism.   Its healthy and needed for prosperity.

That smells a bit like red baiting. (Young folks may want to look that up; old folks may remember living through it).

Pure capitalism is vicious and ruthless. This country has always been a socio-economic mutt -- a mixture of whatever seems to work best for the times and people. It thrives on being a mutt.

A "company" is a company of people acting together for their own self-interest. They give up personal time and resources, sometimes even to the point of sacrificing health and family, to improve the survivability and productivity of that group. (Heavens! Sounds like that evil socialism thing I've heard about!) Naturally, each member hopes to gain from their sacrifices. Each hopes the pie gets bigger so their own slice gets bigger. The pie can't grow if too many members of the company try to grab as much as they can before the others get it.

I'm going to put in a personal anectdote that I think is relevant to the discussion.

When I was a teenager in high school, I worked part time at a service station that many people considered "boot camp for workers". The man who owned it had started with a $300 loan and a borrowed dump truck. He and a friend (darned free labor socialist commies!) hauled dirt and filled in a hole between a creek and a long curve in highway 61 and built a gas station on it and in it. The basement contained a recap shop. ('Way back then, it was still legal to recap passenger car tires).

His advertising budget wouldn't cover most people's lunch money, then or now. Yet, he had customers so loyal that there were many who would only get new tires from him, even those who had to come from as far away as California. His was one of the first cap shops east of the Mississippi to be capable of recapping radials and the then-new 60 series and 50 series tires. He had a warehouse that was mostly filled with "carcasses" -- used tires ready for recapping. (He assigned me the job of organizing that thing. It was dirty, hot work, but the best payoff to me was the fact that they were still using my system many years later when it shut down). The man would share anything he knew with anyone who would (respectfully) listen.

He showed me his books one day after I, a smartaleck teenager, proposed a way to make more money from the gas pumps -- charge just a little more than it takes to get to the next cheaper station. The electric bill alone was a eye-popper. Naturally, most of that electricity was used by the cap shop. He anticipated me recognizing that and said, "You take away the recapping and those pumps still barely pay for the gasoline they pump, the electricity they take and the maintenance of the tanks in the ground. They are there as a service to my customers. I don't pay you; they do. You treat customers the way you want to be treated and you'll be ahead of at least half the businesses out there."

I learned what business is from that man, as did many others. He showed me the numbers that proved that sole proprietorship company had to come up with about $2 for every $1 that came to me and that was before considering making any profit that could be applied toward the future. He didn't rely on secrets. He relied on making sure customers wanted to come back and spend their hard-earned money on his service. He wasn't the cheapest, but you could count on being treated right and the job being done right.

We are social animals. Even a near-hermit like me has to admit to the built-in drive to interact with members of my own species. Any company that doesn't include socialism within it is doomed. The members have to recognize that the company cannot survive if all or many of its members act as parasites.

My oldest brother was a union steward (ICCW) and later elected as the local's president for an unprecedented number of times. During his first term, the recession of the early '80s caused layoffs and shutdowns at many of that corporation's plants around the world. His plant got some new management who seemed to think the best way to run the factory was to emulate the old cotton plantations: Threaten the workers to get more out of them for management's enrichment. Contract negotiations broke down, of course. He convinced the union members to not strike, but continue working without a contract. International HQ sent a team to investigate why, since that was one of only a few plants operating at full production and profitability, yet the union workers had no contract. When that team left, so did that new management gang.

After he retired, that style of management came back. Members came to him complaining about their new president caving to management. He said, "It's your union. Fix it." But he couldn't stay away; he had to go have a talk with that new president. When asked why he caved to every demand of management, the guy said, "Well, it's their company." I wish I could have been a fly on the wall to see the explosion. "That's MY G.D. company! Mine and all my buddies, union and management, built it in spite of the bad a-holes, union and management, just like you! OUR company bought me two houses and put my kids through college. WE worked our tails off to make it the best in the industry. WE never aimed for the median like you dumb 8!@#%^&* are doing; we aimed for perfection no matter the o.t. and head-busting. WE took care of each other and knew our jobs, union and management, so WE could all have a good living! You're acting like an ignorant minimum wage burger flipper who still doesn't know what a company is and you'll get just what you aim for."

Enough socialism within capitalism? You get the idea yet that ideological purity is as much a myth as the utopia depicted in Marx's Communist Manifesto?

If you are some mutant super genius, you have no reason to fear us peons gaining knowledge because you'll always be ahead of us.

If you are just another human being type person like the rest of us, it's futile to think you can (a.) discover and (b.) keep to yourself some treasured secret of how to cut, process and market chunks of trees that no one of the rest of us can ever discover and share.

Nothing I've ever done was accomplished without at least a basis in what I've been taught by others. I don't feel threatened by sharing what I've learned with others.

Find something to do that interests you.

Ianab

Not singling anyone out, but the political and philosophical tangent the thread has taken off on might be better continued in the restricted topics section?

Also just wanted to throw it out there that the Forum itself, and most of the Internet runs on "Open Source" software. That's basically  the computer equivalent of "Free Beer". People and companies develop and support this software for their own reasons, sometime altruistic, sometimes for profit, sometimes just to "stick it to the competition".  Like why hasn't Microsoft's phone operating system taken off? Because Google developed an arguably better Linux based system, Andriod, and basically gave it away for free. You can bet they did this for commercial reasons to prevent Microsoft getting a foot in the search engine door. It worked as 90% of Smartphones now run Android.

Open Source Capitalism maybe?

As for the Forum software, they would rather give away a million copies of their software, and have 0.5% send in a $50 donation, or sell 100 copies for $100 each. They also offer paid technical support, which is charging for specific time and technical knowledge (and fair enough)

Next, GM possibly isn't a very good example of successful Capitalism. Didn't they go bankrupt a few years back, and only survived because the US Govt bailed them out with a loan? Seems a rather Socialist way to run things. It made sense at the time, because otherwise you might now be driving Hyundai F150s.

I can see the point in not giving away some sensitive commercial information. Specific processes, customer lists etc. But most of the information exchanged on the forum is "Common Knowledge", at least to those that have studied the subject. Dr Gene has written books and papers, that you can download for free, funded by Govt grants (sort of Socialist?). If you have a specific question, he will endeavour to help. If it's 5 mins to type up an explanation, he's happy to do this. If you want him to actually turn up in person and run a class on drying wood, or sort out specific issues with your kiln process, then he's going to charge you for his time (and again that's fair enough).

And the "slice of the pie" analogy that was brought up earlier. If you can help make the pie bigger and better, then even if your slice % doesn't increase the slice itself is bigger and better. The industry as a whole, with the associated suppliers and markets is stronger. Who is going to manage land for timber, and harvest it, if there isn't a range of mills to market it to. I see this in some of the posts here. People have cedar trees that are a pest, and they want them gone. Someone else is looking for cedar wood, because they have a market for the legendary $300 cedar coffee tables.

Maybe those 2 people need to get together?  Sharing that sort of information helps all involved.   

Lastly small mill operators aren't really competing against each other. Their main competition is the large and foreign  companies, big box stores etc. Maybe 98% of wood is processed by them. 2 % by small operators? So if we can get that % to 3, by helping each other provide a quality service, we all win.

From a distance I see the US timber market as rather disorganised and fragmented. Few people seem to want to work together to improve it. Asian markets are crying out for logs, and locally we are shipping them boat loads. We have trees, China has smartphones and TVs. Lets do a deal....  Locally a small logging operation can get in on that sort of thing, because the info is shared. Log buyers for the export companies will publish their log specs and prices. Same with local mill. The logger will then have that in his notebook, and know that Mill A is paying a premium for clear butt logs. The second log will make spec for an export saw log. Log three will go to a local mill that does a lot of "farm" grade lumber and 4 will be posts or firewood. Because the info is out there, he can maximise the profit, to himself and the landowner.

Because the information is shared.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Chop Shop

First off,

My thoughts were on THE SLAB market, not milling lumber, milling for others, building furniture, tables etc.

Helping someone figure out how to file a chain, change a blade, set lead, repair an engine, saw for quality, etc is a place to help out and they will either get it or they wont.

But my area has became FLOODED with slabs for sale.  The prices have gone down.  I don't give slab selling advice.     Its pretty hard to worry about a guy with a $500 mill tapping into your LUMBER bizz.   But when you have 50-100K invested in inventory and equipment for cutting slabs and then dozens of new guys pop up with a $500-1000 chainsaw mill and some free logs he will run the market into the ground and its frustrating.

The hypocrisy is strong here.  I came here with an opinion DEFENDING my trade, product and money making skills that I support my family with and am labeled a money hungry, selfish, capitalist, greedy devil.

Now go back and reread the OP first question.   He asked how to get the MOST MONEY and HOW.


Quote from: jemmy on June 23, 2017, 10:44:34 PMI do not know even the first thing about selling slabs so if someone could bestow some knowledge about moving this many slabs for maximum dollar that would be great.


You can either choose to see the point Im making and ponder it or ignore it.

AGAIN,  Im not talking about mobile milling or the lumber bizz.  Both are hard work for little gains.  Most folks dont make it long or have an ipact on local markets.

The thrill of "getting paid" from slabs off of  "free logs" is a new trend and it WILL affect you soon if you sell slabs near any metro area.

tule peak timber

Prices here for a quality  SINGLE large log that I buy to slab has gone from a low of 5000$ to 60000$ in the last few years. Lots of slabs for sale in my area even at that. I posted a weather vane earlier to indicate which way to go business wise. Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Jeff

Chop Shop, knock off the attitude, or take a vacation.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

jemmy

Well this thread got out of hand quickly... Soooooo lets address some things.

1) Chop Shop your points have some amount of validity to them, however, if you would like to speak about hypocrisy lets address the fact that you are posting about not sharing things to a website that is designed to spread knowledge. So you don't want to share certain things, that's fine, but who are you to decide what is shared and what is not?  I think that is primary problem that people have with your rhetoric. Its not that you are necessarily wrong with your core points, its the medium and manner in which you presented yourself.

2) My overhead is quite more significant than just a 500-1000 chainsaw mill. My 090 was a grand alone. Then lets add in my bobcat, front end loader, circular sawmill, 2 trailers, truck, logs, tools to maintain and fix, and the property where I store my logs and inventory. So I'm not just some hack that's halfway invested into this. (Oh I also didn't even add in how much its going to cost me to dry everything, that'll come later in this post)

3) I own a circular saw mill as well and I desire to do a lot of milling with it. I have a lot of other questions pertaining to that!

4) The cost of drying them properly is ridiculously high. I plan on vacuum kiln drying them ($1.5/bdft) and they only deal with full truck loads. So I am going to have to sink 14 grand into drying my slabs, and I am going to be risking nearly my entire slab stock. Don't forget about transporting that much as well! That'll be expensive because I will have to make multiple trips across Ohio with a truck and a fully load triple axel.

5) I am looking to get as much money for them as possible, but I would like to be fair. I don't think its unreasonable to ask what's the best means in which to sell my slabs. I don't want to rip anyone off and I also don't want to lose my shirt.

6) I agree that the slab market COULD POTENTIALLY become over saturated and the margins shrink. However, I don't see that happening to the point where there is no money to be made. If you are being beat then you'll have to adjust and learn from those who are winning. And I feel like this place can help give that edge if ever needed. (now that's irony)

7) My full plan of production in terms of what I am going to do with my slabs:

- Cut them up.
- Let them air dry down to 30%. I just got off the phone with the vacuum kiln people and they said to let oak get down to 30-25% before vac drying.
- Send them to kiln.
- Offer for sale and make some wedding gifts.

If anyone sees anything wrong, or knows of any smaller scale vacuum kilns near NW Ohio please let me know. And lastly does anyone know if surface checking on a slab is a problem, or causes devaluation of any sort?
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

4x4American

I have some big logs in for custom sawing, and I was thinking about getting a big bar and alaskan mill attachment for my 660 because the customer wants slabs.  I'm looking at how I can do it the cheapliest, because it seems like a come and go type thing.


If you have over a hundred grand in equipment for doing large slabs, then you should be able to blow the hackjob guys outta the water, no?  If you can't then sell your big boy equipment and get into a chainsaw mill and get rid of all that overhead if it isn't doing you any good.
Boy, back in my day..

grouch

Quote
7) My full plan of production in terms of what I am going to do with my slabs:

- Cut them up.
- Let them air dry down to 30%. I just got off the phone with the vacuum kiln people and they said to let oak get down to 30-25% before vac drying.
- Send them to kiln.
- Offer for sale and make some wedding gifts.

If anyone sees anything wrong, or knows of any smaller scale vacuum kilns near NW Ohio please let me know. And lastly does anyone know if surface checking on a slab is a problem, or causes devaluation of any sort?

I seem to recall some of the experts earlier in the thread suggesting that air drying leads to defects in certain species, because it dries too fast.

You might want to review the thread from before it derailed.

I apologize for my (too large) part in that derailing, but can't resist posting a link to a comment by OlJarHead today that seems tailor made for the off-topic part of the discussion here.
Find something to do that interests you.

jemmy

Grouch, I thought that drying them with in a conventional kiln would do that? And from the people that I have talked with there has been one constant and that is the best way to dry thick slabs is to vacuum kiln them. I'm going to air dry them to 25-30% then send them to the vacuum kiln so that it minimizes the potential for imperfection. And a new development (after talking with another vacuum kiln owner/operator) said that he cuts red oak and gets it into the vac kiln the same day. Now, is there anything wrong with this intel? I've heard two separate things both from reputable operators, and I'm confused as to what which was one is correct. Also, is there much demand for red/white oak live edge? After our discussion one of the vac kiln owners said that he practically never gets orders for either species. I figured oak would be one of the most sought after things you could produce. Is that assumption wrong? Another question, if I am going to be vac drying them, should I cut them thinner then 3" or should I keep that thickness?
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Kbeitz

Air drying outside might have a lot to do with where you live.
There has to be a big difference between the north and south
and even the east and west. It's going to be different for everyone.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

WDH

For me, oak moves the slowest.  Many people consider it too common and average.  My best sellers are stained soft maple, better yet, stained, ambrosia maple, and black walnut.  Odd and different stuff like persimmon might move a little slow, but the value is very high.  I do well with figured pecan (lots of dark brown heartwood).  The slabs do best then there is character with a beautiful, convoluted live edge.  3" thick is a bit too thick for me, but have some in that thickness would be good. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

Specie demands vary from area to area.  I can't speak too much about the slab market or the specialty market.  I do know that in my 45 years in the business that red oak went from being considered junk to being king and now its okay.  I also remember talking to guys who considered hard maple as junk when the market was low.  It all depends where you are in the cycle.

It's a generational thing.  This is about a 30 yr cycle and runs from open grained species (like oak and ash), to the closed grain species (like birch and maple).  I've come to the speculative conclusion that people tend to like the things their grandparents had vs things their parents had. 

I also would go to places like Lowe's or Home Depot and see what type of cabinets they had on display.  A number of years ago, they started to put maple, hickory and the like in the high traffic areas.  That told me that the marketplace was changing.   Oak was on its way down the list, and maple was coming up. 

The problems I see with the slab market is that you are producing on speculation.  I sawed in a commercial mill for 35 yrs, and we rarely sawed on speculation.  Slabs are a market that you produce today for a market a couple of years down the line.  Will oak be outdated by that time?  Will conference tables be wanted or needed?  Its a high end market.  You need to do market research with some high end users.  Architects and custom furniture producers would probably be a good place to research.  Walnut and cherry seem to be in demand in all cycles. 

I can't help too much on drying.  If you're getting 2 different methods, it could be that they're both right. Did any of them make a guarantee on the outcome of your product?  It would be a shame to waste time and effort and have someone else ruin it for you.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

YellowHammer

Check out my reply #21.
An ability of a wood species to dry without drying defects is based upon its maximum allowable moisture removal rate.  These are published values of the percent that a species can lose per day per thickness without incurring drying defects.  As the thickness increases, the max allowable drying rate goes down, generally in significant multiples.  For example 2 inch thick wood can only tolerate 1/2 the maximum allowable moisture loss per day.  Three inch thick, even less. 

The drying capacity of any environment, be it outside air or in a kiln, is published in tables, such as an EMC (Equilibrium Moisture Content) table which uses the air temperature and the relative humidity (or wet bulb/dry bulb) to calculate the amount of moisture being carried in the air, and tells where the wood will eventually come to equilibrium.

So then you compare the MC (Moisture Content) of the wood, and the EMC (Equilibrium Moisture Content) of the air, and if the difference (Depression) is too much for the wood to tolerate based on the thickness and species, the wood will dry too fast and it will crack.

This is how kiln schedules are developed and used, and the problem in air drying comes when the ambient air has such a low EMC that is will over dry that particular species and thickness of wood causing cracks.  This will change from season to season and place to place.  Again, lots of tables in published papers, including the EMC values and maps for seasonal locations in the United States.

In Alabama, its almost impossible to successfully air dry thick red oak outside without cracking.  As a matter of fact, the rate at which 4/4 oak dries is right at its max allowable rate limit.  For other species, its no problem, such as poplar and pine, where I routinely air dry 3 inch thick with no problem.  So its very species and thickness specific. 

Cutting thick slabs or oak and air drying down to 25%  in Alabama is a bad move, as it will be ruined by the time it gets there.  Better to cut it an immediately put it in a kiln, whether vacuum or conventional, to develop an atmosphere where it will dry correctly.  That is the advice that the vacuum kiln operator is telling you, and that is what I would expect to be correct in your local environmental conditions. 

Even the seemingly simple act of transporting the wet wood to the kiln can cause it to dry too fast and crack, for example a long drive in a open truck bed will move too much air over the wood, especially if it is already stickered, and cause almost immediate damage in oak, but would fine for a less sensitive wood, as defined in the Max Allowable Moisture Loss tables.

There are techniques to actually slow the air drying process down, from simple burlap to products such as generic "Shade Dry" cloth.  However, these technique are very species dependent, and what works for one species will ruin another.

Even though air drying sounds simple, air and kiln drying thick wood is very involved to achieve consistent success, and there is a lot more to it than what I've said.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

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