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Driveway Installation on a wooded property...without damaging trees

Started by WhiteOak, June 15, 2017, 05:27:50 PM

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WhiteOak

Hello all, new member here. Introducing myself and a little background info on what I'm dealing with.

I own 4 acres of hardwoods in southern Wisconsin that I'm trying to care for properly and eventually build on doing ...as little damage in the process as possible. The land has sugar maple, ash, basswood, red oak, white oak, cherry, and some black walnut.

A far majority of the mature timber is maple and oak.

I'm going to need to install a driveway eventually that goes roughly 300ft into the property. That requires removing roughly 1 ft of topsoil and replacing with gravel. Amazingly, I do not need to cut anything except a few small saplings to do so. My concern however is that the removal of this soil will hit roots of nice, mature maples and red oaks that are maybe 4-8 ft from the edges of the proposed driveway.

Will doing this kill these trees and is there ANY possible way around it?

Thanks for your help

wannaergo

I think if you are cutting a foot down, you will risk hitting some roots. Is there anything that would prevent you from just putting the gravel on top of the topsoil?
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WhiteOak

That was simply the recommendation from the builder/excavator...he stated if you don't you'll always be dealing with "spongyness" and frequent potholes. I don't know if it's a requirement for getting a cement truck back there as well but I was just under the assumption that it HAD to be done the way he made it sound.

DDW_OR

my two cents

dig 6 inch deep
then fill with 3 inch rock to ground level
then cover with 3/4 minus

if the road is to be built on a slope then place the ditch on the up-hill side, add culvert across the road if/when needed

rent a 8,000 pound excavator for a week, 40 hours, to do the work
"let the machines do the work"

Gary_C

Not quite sure of your soil type but most places in southern WI you would be hard pressed to find 12 inches of topsoil. Most places I know it more sandy & rocky soil covered by a thin layer of topsoil.

At any rate, it's best to put crown on your road for best stability so the road sheds water.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Grizzly

Your contractor is trying to build you a road that will last and not be a frustration as the years go by. That said it is also the most expensive way to go. As far as depth goes, we worry a lot more about soil type as we remove dirt than any particular depth. Black dirt ALL has to go. Black dirt will provide grief as you go. I like the idea DDW has about using a small hoe. Remove black loamy dirt picking around roots the best you can. If you have any clay like we have, just make sure you have drainage as has been described and then larger rock followed by small gravel as already described. Don't feel obligated to remove a foot of dirt just because that's the measurement. Watch the soil and let it dictate. I'm not too acquainted with your root types but our evergreens have large area surface roots that can be easily damaged and uprooted. Dad let a contractor scratch away and we soon lost 20 or 30 beautiful Cedars (where I grew up in Abbotsford, BC). Just my 2 cents but I'm from far away. As a truck driver I hate driveways that were put in on the cheap.
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ChugiakTinkerer

Welcome to the forum WhiteOak!  It sounds like you could do a hybrid, excavate down to mineral soil, but do it slow and careful around the trees you want to preserve.  You could probably backfill around those with some sand to offer a little protection before putting down gravel.
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snowstorm

take the loam leaves what off put fabric down and gravel over it at least a ft

coxy

x2 what snowstorm says if you put down GOOD fabric and gravel over it you wont have any issues

WhiteOak

DDW, thanks for the advice, I was definitely considering installing it by myself at this point strictly because I don't trust anyone with a larger excavator hacking up the root system

Gary thanks for the reply I put in roughly 100 seedlings on the property  to regenerate new oaks and I can tell you for certain I have no less than 10 inches of black dirt anywhere. Clay underneath , however there are a LOT of 3 to 4 inch rocks through out I don't know if that factors in to how deep you dig

WhiteOak

Griz that's all awesome advice I appreciate the reply very much and I will use it. what happened to your Cedars is what I'm trying to avoid and I just don't know if I'm comfortable letting someone else do it but I am a tool and die maker by trade so I don't have a whole lot of experience with this kind of thing

WhiteOak

Tinkerer  thank you for the kind welcome . i've heard that advice about the sand on other AG articles before do you think by having the sand you would run into any sort of a crush hazard with heavy vehicles needed to pour concrete? The only thing I'm worried about is a cement truck

WhiteOak


coxy


mike_belben

Fabric for sure.  Its like a net that keeps your rock from being pushed down and migrating into the wet spots.  A 300ft roll 15' wide is about $500 but youll get your solid driveway with only 6" of rock ontop.

My advice is scrape top soil, fabric, one thin layer of 3-5" rock then cap that in few inches of 3minus and drive on it for a while to get it all locked up tight and see if theres any problem areas that need more.  Once youre all stabilized you can lay a little crushed gravel over the top to let the fines fill any of the voids.  The more variety of particle sizes the tighter itll all lock together.
Praise The Lord

sprucebunny

Fabric distributes the load, keeps the drainage materials separate from the base soil and most types provide horizontal drainage.

I built a driveway like you are thinking but since I needed a couple of feet of height, I left most of the soil and stumps, put down the fabric and almost 2 feet of 3-4" riprap stone and then 1.5" stone then crushed gravel. The trees I didn't scrape are fine and the drainage is good.
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thecfarm

Anyone contractor will put down ground fabric for a driveway. If they don't,find someone else. It is money well spent.
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snowstorm

in some places farbic isnt needed some it is. after the road is built and the house surface the road with 3to 4" of 1". that way you can grade it when it gets ruff and it will. a york rake with the wheels behind it on your 3 pt hitich. one other thing to keep in mind when putting in a low impact road with lots of turns to avoid trees. can the fire dept. get there if need be? narrow rd tight turns toss in a little ice an snow.

Autocar

Also when you decide to build have all the dirt hauled away from foundation/basement if they spread it out it will kill the trees from suffocation. Also keep all cement trucks on the drive and off the ground around the house there also pack the ground and the trees will suffocate. And I will add this also if you have big trees leaning towards your house location, take them down before the house is built it will save you big bucks later on getting a bucket truck crew involved.
Bill

DDW_OR

Quote from: Autocar on June 16, 2017, 07:57:48 PM
Also when you decide to build have all the dirt hauled away from foundation/basement if they spread it out it will kill the trees from suffocation. Also keep all cement trucks on the drive and off the ground around the house there also pack the ground and the trees will suffocate. And I will add this also if you have big trees leaning towards your house location, take them down before the house is built it will save you big bucks later on getting a bucket truck crew involved.

infinity  likes 8)
"let the machines do the work"

OntarioAl

Fabric for sure
We cross bogs with the stuff and run 130,000 lb. haul trucks over it
It acts like a huge snow shoe.
Like the others have said best investment you could make
Al
Al Raman

reedco

           Road has to be sealed on top or you will get soft spots (fines in with the rock on top) . Fabric (snow shoe best explanation I've heard) Drainage Pipes,ditches very important. Good luck!







Not many trees

mike_belben

I had to redo my whole driveway to cut a ditch into the uphill side.   If youre crossing a sidehill thats highest on your passenger side, you dont wanna let the water run from right to left across the road, it just keep washing fines out.  The ditch gets cut on the passenger side so that runoff from up the hill hits it and travels along your road to a suitable pooling site.  I had to swap the crown of the road so that the driver side was higher than passenger and also drain to the ditch at the uphill side.  That solved it. 
Praise The Lord

barbender

I installed asphalt driveways for years, doing the base work as well. I'd say upwards of 75% of existing driveways were improperly installed, whether it was just putting gravel over topsoil, improper, inadequate, or non-existant drainage, burying woody debris (clearing a lot, just push all the wood and stumps in the driveway and bury them- problem solved ::) ). I had a pretty low opinion of excavating contractors in general, but in their defense, a lot of people aren't willing to pay to do the job right. Pay now, or pay more, way more, later. Get rid of all the topsoil.  Geotextile fabric isn't always necessary, but it can be cheap insurance. How mushy and wet do things get in there in the spring? If it gets real soft, if the drainage in general is poor, or if the clay soil has poor load bearing characteristics (clays can vary a lot) I'd go with the fabric. As someone else mentioned, you don't want water running across the driveway. The quicker it gets off, the less chance it has to soak in and saturate it. It sounds like the contractor you had look at it wants to do things right, be up front with him about protecting the tree roots, etc. Expect to pay more for him to spend time finessing and going around them, don't withold that info and tell him about it after he gives you his bid. I'll be honest, I've also seen a lot of people (including myself ;D) cause themselves a lot of headaches by trying to save too many trees. You will likely be compromising your drainage by having trees crowded right up to the road (you won't be able to ditch it). All that shade keeps the road from drying out, leading to more frequent potholes, requiring you to maintain it more often. My inlaws put in a long drive for a new house a few years back, I did the main drive, but they got antsy when I got busy midsummer and had the septic installer do the portion up by the house. It included most all of the mistakes I've listed here, and a few I haven't- gravel over topsoil, no thought given to drainage, every spring it turns into an impassable mudhole. Guess who gets to fix it? ::) Now I'll be going in and tearing up their established yard to make drainage, and making a real mess, to fix it. My point is, do it right the first time.
Too many irons in the fire

Stoneyacrefarm

Spot on Barbender.
Great advice.
I've done the same thing in the past.
Only to have to go back and do it the right way later on.
Do it right the first time and have no regrets later on.  8)
Work hard. Be rewarded.

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