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Author Topic: Stave or Veneer  (Read 685 times)

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Offline mike_belben

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Stave or Veneer
« on: June 12, 2017, 03:56:39 pm »
What finer points separate a white oak stave from veneer?   I have seen images of flawless veneer logs then seen the veener pile at the local mill and cant tell it from the stave pile.  They all look similar to me.   


Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2017, 05:08:09 pm »
for me its size more than any thing. but quality will determine as well, knots, sap wood, shake, there is alot to it. not every WO will make best grade. if it did we would all have golden timber lol. if a tree makes one veneer or panel and another one or two staves, i am tickled.
smaller trees around 18" or smaller dbh will almost always be stave. there are always exceptions, and every market is different.

Offline mills

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2017, 09:00:25 pm »
When the stave market took off back a few years ago I found that I was making as much if not more going stave vs. chasing the veneer markets. It may be that the buyers I dealt with weren't as generous, or maybe the logs weren't as good as I thought, but it will be interesting to watch this post roll along. Be even more interesting to see what prices some are getting on veneer. ;)

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2017, 10:05:18 pm »
Mills, what happened for me was, they started making stave way up the tree, knots and all. almost no WO saw.

Offline killamplanes

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2017, 11:08:43 pm »
Here, veneer gets clear 3 and 4 sided, expecially the larger stuff. Stave gets smaller stuff competing against good grade mills. Grade will take down to 2 sided. But stave buyer buys load quantitys only. I personally sell the veneers and unless it's a big wo job take the rest to grade mill. Honestly unless stave is hurting we have a real good grade mill that will stay real competitive with stave.  I want to say stave takes up to 24dbh, I remember I was on big wo cut 2yrs ago and stave buyer showed up and loved what I had but couldn't buy but a small amount due to the size of my logs. I cut some pretty big stuff of some tracts. Fyi stave treats us real good on scale keeping the stick as long as they will grade.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2017, 11:21:06 pm »
Best I can get hauling direct to the stave mill is $1800/mbf on a 3SC or better min 16" DIB min 10'6" long with minor heart rot allowed.

My local stave mill was giving $1700/mbf but it burned down. Any of the other mills that buy it are just collecting to sell to the next user down the line with a markup.   That minimum log described above will bring $1250 local or if it were 17" diameter itll go $1400/mbf. 

For 18" veneer that same mill's spec sheet says $1300 and up.

I dont know what i can get for veneer if i were to find the top bidder, dont know that i could procure enough of it to attract one either.  Only been at this game 6 months so im learning the ropes as i go. The stand im in should make a good bit of stave and at that rate im not inclined to hold much of it back only to be rejected for veneer.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2017, 11:28:11 pm »
Btw the stave mill thats paying $1800/m for prime will take 3SC logs as small as 11" at 8'6 and longer for $800/mbf.

Otherwise the best i could do on that log is $390/mbf cutting it for a crosstie.  But that means getting paid 8ft doyle on a 9'3 log.

Offline mills

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 05:10:53 am »
Yeah, it's hard to generate a lot of interest when you have only a few possible veneer logs on a job. Got a big WO job to start this fall, and thinking about pulling the veneer buyers in. They may be a little more interested when they see the amount of WO on this farm. 8)

I remember the first time I sold WO veneer. I had a "what the heck" moment when the buyer pulled out a chainsaw and cut a foot off the butt end off a couple of logs. And was a lot less than impressed when he paid for 10' logs vs the 12's that I hauled in. >:( The price was good, but it hurt my feelings to give up the footage.

Offline coxy

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 06:46:52 am »
wonder why  they don't like 12ft veneer even in h maple ash cherry

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2017, 09:01:22 am »
I bring in small loads frequently so as to minimize any chance of me making a simple mistake on a lot of logs, especially when im getting into a different size or quality that i havent got nailed down.  Cut a few, go get schooled.  Im very slow on the job but just cant afford not being precise.

So far the biggest trick ive encountered in low grade hardwood is that tie rate pays in between 1Common and 2common, and theyll always say oh well leave it long that way we can trim it back.  Ok. 

A tie is 9'3 min so ill buck 9'6 incase i need to trim back a double heart or ant hole etc, its all presentation, i bring tidy trimmed up logs even if theyre low grade and 4 sides rough.  Lets say at the top of the spar where theres 3 more feet to a crotch.  If i leave that on and bring them a 12"6 log, theyll "upgrade" me to 3common.  That pays half the rate of tie yet they still get to keep the tie thats inside there.  I reckon they just chop it off and slab a discount tie out of it. 

You have to buck for specific product, lesson learned.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 12:23:19 am »
Trying to decide how to buck this.  Think Its about 11feet to the first knot and maybe 20" at that point.  Then the big crook.  Some heart rot, which i asked the stave buyer about today, he doesnt care.  Im guessing that would knock it out of veneer specs right? 




















Offline mills

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 05:01:26 am »
Hmmm...

The money is in the butt cut, so normally I would go for 10'. Can't tell for sure but the log doesn't look long enough to get a tie on the end, and may not even if the butt cut is backed up to an 8'?

Offline East ky logging

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 07:40:45 am »
Just by looking at the pictures on my phone if it just has the one knot at around 11' I believe I'd try to cut it at 14' and scrap the rest. The sweep doesn't look to bad but it could be worse than what I can see. It wouldn't veneer here but it would stave but not top dollar so I'd just go with the footage. Looks a little blue around the heart but that could be where you cut through the heart rot I can't really tell.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 08:30:34 am »
Yeah the blue is just from the heart mud making the bar run hot.

I didnt even think of noodling off the crotch and cutting a tie from the straight side of the fork.  Thanks guys,  Ill have to do some measuring.  I snapped the pics and set aside.  I dont remember if the first 10ft was 3sc or 4sc.  Im pretty sure id get $1800/mbf out of the butt at 10ft but leaving longer would drop it to $1250.  If i can pull a tie out of the second half im more than happy with this one.   I try to get every ft to bring its highest grade.

  This tree was on its way to being a beauty when a clearing was made right up to it and it bent in for light.

Offline Lumberjohn

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 10:19:50 am »
Hard to say for sure but that "blue" makes it look like there might be metal in the butt log?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Stave or Veneer
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2017, 12:27:35 pm »
Anythings possible, ill take a closer look.