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Official MS261CM vs 550XP test

Started by HolmenTree, June 06, 2017, 10:46:34 PM

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HolmenTree

My dealer officially  has been a Husqvarna dealer for over 40 years. They just took on Stihl a couple of years ago when the previous Stihl dealer retired.

The MS261 didn't need any fuel settings reset etc. Just came from the factory the way it is. That I like.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

khntr85

Wow what a great thread you have made very nice bud!!!

  I am glad you are liking that 261, you are making me want one more and more...seem to be a saw that is ready to work right off the shelf!!!

CR888

Most of the features being discussed here are ALL on the OE standard carb MS261....same part numbers. The non upright cylinder (laid back) is a different cast, it has fewer cooling fins and shed some weight but port timing is the same. The 1/4 turn airfilter has been out for near a decade since the release of the MS241 then 261. The intake manifold setup is slightly different the front dawg has changed and is a pressed design. And the clutch cover. Don't get me wrong their are some improvements and Stihl is heading in right direction but the major changes were made when the ms260 was replaced by the ms261.

PNWRusty

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 21, 2017, 08:59:46 PM
The little 63PS chisel chain I had on it from the first tank to yesterday was a good combination and will cut faster then the bigger .325 23RS by the stop watch being lighter built and making a narrower kerf. But I can't really tell when working.
If I had touched up the new 23RS with the file first thing this morning it definitely would cut faster them it did new out of the box.

The 7 T .325 rim is quite a bit smaller in diameter then the Picco 7T 3/8 rim so the 23RS would be as easy pulling for the 261 compared to the narrower Picco chisel with the larger diameter rim sprocket.

23RS has more meat to it so would be a sturdier edge holding chain.
I'm running the 23RS on my 562XP too and  it's a nice smooth quick combo

I picked up a MS 261 C-M a couple weeks ago to supplement the 026 I've owned from new (20 years). The 026 runs stronger than freshly broken in but it has seen enough hard running in bigger wood where a larger saw might have been more appropriate that I felt having a second saw would be a good thing. Most people would have supplemented the old 026 with a bigger or smaller saw but I like the 50 cc size so much and have never found a need that the 026 couldn't get done if I put my longest bar (20") on it. And since I only do ground work I didn't need a smaller saw.

The 261 MC was a little down on power brand new, as expected. And while it always started right up, it had some odd power fluctuations in the cut that I found disturbing. It came with a 20" bar and a green .325, .063 chain that didn't cut worth a darn out of the gate. The chain was dry right from the start so I cleared the oiler passages and groove and made sure the bar/saw mating surfaces were clean upon re-assembly. Even with the oiler turned on high I didn't get significant oil on the chain until I removed the thin stainless shim just inside the bar and reinstalled it. I never did find out what was the issue but oil is now flowing to the chain. Before that I manually oiled the chain between each cut just to run my new saw a bit. I can happily report that yesterday, on the third full tank the engine really came alive. It had been steadily improving up to that point and I have no reason to believe it wont continue to gradually gain power. It is already stronger than the 026 by a significant margin (and the 026 is a particularly strong and reliable runner). The odd power fluctuations in the cut have disappeared and it is quickly becoming a very likeable and quick/strong little buddy.

The only way the 026 bests it after three tanks through the 261 CM is the 026 is slightly lighter.  I think the powerhead difference is 8 oz. but the 026 20" bar/chain feels lighter as well even though they are both Rollomatics and both have Stihl chains (I haven't weighed them yet). The 026 has 20" .50, 3/8  w/ semi-chisel yellow chain vs. 261 with 20" .063, .325 w/ semi-chisel green chain.

Is the green chain so much heavier that it negates the smaller .325 chain? I haven't bought any spare chains or bars yet because I'm still deciding what I want to run. I'll be getting a 16-18" bar but I don't know if I should stick with .325 and .063 or bring both my saws into the same setup so they can share chains/bars between them. I want to go light and cut fast, not interested in extra durability.

If I switch the 026 over to .325, .063, I'll have two orphan bars and a couple of chains that are not showing excessive wear, if I go the other way, I'll have one almost new orphan bar and chain (that came on the new saw). I'm not opposed to running two different setups, just thought it might make sense to converge them before I start buying chains/bars for the new saw.

What do you guys think? I cut mostly downed softwood 4-36" in diameter (occasionally larger) but also some PNW hardwood, with occasional Madrone or Oak being the hardest, and the occasional felling of a dead or undesirable tree up to about 24". Since the green chain supplied with the 261 is the only .325 chain I've ever cut with, I don't know enough to decide which I like better.

This is what I think I know, please correct:

1) 3/8 (vs. .325) will have a faster chain speed with less torque (assuming 7 tooth sprocket) but fewer cutters in contact with a given cut.
2) Most 3/8 chain cuts a wider kerf than .325.
3) Typical .050 bar will be slightly narrower than equivalent .063 bar in the same pitch.
4) Typical .325 bar will be slightly narrower than equivalent 3/8 bar in the same gauge (assuming sprocket tip here).


49er

On my 50cc saw, Jonsered 2253 modified by tlandrum, I recently switched to 3/8's with square file chain. It is both faster and smoother than .325, on my saw anyway. I tried square filed .325 but it is too much of a pain to sharpen. I am very happy with this setup :).
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

49er

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 22, 2017, 04:06:41 PM
Removed some Manitoba maples today for a customer with the 550XP getting it's turn.
Much cooler today 61F/16C with 80% humidity. The 550 has about 8 tanks through it already and since the dealer reset the Auto Tune fuel settings it's  running almost normal now.
Still taking it's time warming up with what seems like a pre ignition miss that takes even longer to go away. Maybe it needs a new spark plug already.


 
I have had trouble with those little spark plugs. The problem is internal to the plug. The saw would rev up and then die, new plug and it ran fine.
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

HolmenTree

CR888, great information .
Before my recent purchase of my new MS261CM besides a number of new MS200s , the last new Stihl I bought was my 1992 066Mag. I'm  learning lots here about the new Stihls. Never used a OE 261
This new edition Stihl MS261CM introduced in 2016 seems to have the best of everything and I think the biggest improvement is the new CM technology that controls it.
Yes like you said Stihl is going in the right direction, which  I know for a fact is a very true statement. Being proven with the recent introduction of the new MS462C in Germany.
The New edition MS261 and MS462 share the same design.


PNWRusty welcome to the forum!
You and I are on the same page both of us having similar hour 261s. Please keep up your input.
On your question on sawchain differences, I could write 10 pages on design but would only scratch the surface.
Stihl does not make a narrow kerf .325 bar/chain like the Oregon 95 series or the Husqvarna H25.
But they do make an excellent chisel .325 23RS chain but it is still .063 gauge drive links stepped down to .050

If you want lighter narrower kerf chain try the 3/8 low profile 63PS Picco chisel. It's a true full narrow gauge .050 drive link chain. But like my pic below shows the 7 tooth Picco rim is larger in diameter then the 7 tooth .325 rim.
Top chain and rim is the 23RS combo, bottom 63PS.
I don't recommend full size standard 3/8 chain on a factory stock 50cc saw.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

PNWRusty

Thank-you for the warm welcome! I'll certainly keep everyone updated on my experiences with the 261 MC but I have an issue. I mostly cut firewood and I'm getting stuffed to the gills with the stuff. There is no place to put it! My house is built on a boulder field comprised of boulders sized from woodstoves to trucks (remnants of a mountain that fractured and collapsed) and I've run out of places to put new wood stacks. And I was just starting to have fun with my new saw! Maybe I can unload new rounds at homes of my wood-burning friends!

I'm interested in learning the finer points of different chain sizes/designs. I understand the basics of fitment and compatibility and the tradeoffs of different cutter designs (because this stuff is commonly explained on forums and in articles) but since I've been cutting exclusively with 3/8, .050 chain for the last 20 years I don't have a feel for some of the finer differences (for example how a narrower kerf would impact the tendency for a log under load to bind on the bar). My intuition tells me this would be more a function of the difference between the bar thickness and kerf width. And yet I've seen no mention of this ratio or whether anyone even pays attention to it (besides chainsaw saw/chain manufacturers). I would assume that the ratio varies with different bar/chain combinations.

One thing I'm actually confused by is that knowledgeable persons often talk of .325 chain requiring less power than 3/8 chain because of the sprocket size difference (effective gear ratio). Your earlier comment (reposted below) is a variation on that concept with the additional variable of different kerf widths:

QuoteThe 7 T .325 rim is quite a bit smaller in diameter then the Picco 7T 3/8 rim so the 23RS would be as easy pulling for the 261 compared to the narrower Picco chisel with the larger diameter rim sprocket.

Here's my confusion. Lets compare power requirements for two chains of the same kerf width and cutter design, one being .325 and the other 3/8. Using a 7 tooth sprocket on each, we know the larger pitch of the 3/8 will have a larger diameter drive sprocket which will cause a higher chain speed and lower torque. However, wouldn't the lower torque be balanced out by the fact that the larger pitch will also result in a larger space between the cutters (which will result in fewer cutters working at any given moment)?

This is what has me scratching my head from a theoretical standpoint. I understand from a practical standpoint that the .325 typically has a narrower kerf and therefore is the easier pulling chain but this difference is typically attributed to the .325 pitch, not the kerf width. Am I missing something here or is (almost) everyone just speaking in generalities and using imprecise language? ???

HolmenTree

Rusty, seeing your from the PNW I gather your under the influence of semi skip and full skip professional sawchain.
In timbersport speed bucking races standard space  sequence chain is proven to be faster cutting then skip tooth chain.
Full skip chain works well when a a 25" or longer bar is buried under  work conditions in the horizontal felling position.
.325 full skip is available btw. But you can run full 3/8 chain on your 261 but just be patient when the cutters are new.
When you get the cutters filed down to the laser witness marks you will have lots of chain speed in the wood plus binding.

Not my greatest post as I'm out of town with my family at a hotel restraunt.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

CR888

Willard with regards to the rims sprockets I think you may have it confused a little. (I have both 550xp and 2 MS261's). The 261 takes the 'Microâ„¢spline' rim which is slightly smaller size than the regular small rim that comes with a 550xp. The micro is availible in picco7/8pin, .325-7/8pin, standard full size 3/8- in 7&8pin & even a 1/4" sprocket too (I think). Now the 550xp has the old school small spline which should be available in lo pro, .325 etc. I have a standard 3/8 rim on my 550 atm, I believe you should be able to get a low pro sprocket for the 550. Also, I have a 555 husky and you can swap clutch covers if you want an all orange saw, you can also swap clutch drums to put a large spline (probably wouldn't want too) on the 550 or vice versa.

HolmenTree

Quote from: CR888 on June 25, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
Willard with regards to the rims sprockets I think you may have it confused a little. (I have both 550xp and 2 MS261's). The 261 takes the 'Microâ„¢spline' rim which is slightly smaller size than the regular small rim that comes with a 550xp. The micro is availible in picco7/8pin, .325-7/8pin, standard full size 3/8- in 7&8pin & even a 1/4" sprocket too (I think). Now the 550xp has the old school small spline which should be available in lo pro, .325 etc. I have a standard 3/8 rim on my 550 atm, I believe you should be able to get a low pro sprocket for the 550. Also, I have a 555 husky and you can swap clutch covers if you want an all orange saw, you can also swap clutch drums to put a large spline (probably wouldn't want too) on the 550 or vice versa.
CR888, there's no lo pro 3/8 rim sprocket in small 7 spline bore available for the 550XP.
Stihl only makes a mini 7 spline bore rim and a standard 7 spline bore rim sprocket.
Husqvarna with Oregon only make a small 7 spline and a standard 7 spline rim sprocket.
The only Picco or 3/8 lo profile rims available are for Stihl in mini 7 spline.
All other lo profile 3/8 are on spur sprocket drum.

The only 1/4" rims available (I'm not including the homemade pin style Danzco rims) in cast rim style are Jax brand made down under. I have them in small 7 spline bore which will fit a 550XP. But why would you want 1/4" on a 550. I do have the 1/4" Jax small 7 spline rim on my 338XPT
For Stihl you would have to get a 1/4" pitch spur sprocket drum listed in a 024/026AV IPL.

.325 rims are available in 7t-8t in mini 7 spline, small  7 spline.
In standard 7 spline bore only 9 tooth .325 rims are available.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

barbender

I'm watching this with interest. I have a 346xp that is getting tired,  I was looking at the 550xp but to be honest, I would kind of like to try  Stihl. I've always had Husky and Jred, and both have had a fair share of problems. I love how that little 346 cuts, but that little saw always seems to have something wrong with it. One of my buddies switched to Stihl a couple years back, he said he'll never go back to Husky. So, I'm watching to see how this 2611cm stacks up.
Too many irons in the fire

HolmenTree

Yes I'm waiting for some real hot weather to test the 261.
But so far at 77F I had to use the fast idle on the new 550XP to avoid  hot start iissues.
Don't need to do that with the 261.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

PNWRusty

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 24, 2017, 10:50:21 AM
Rusty, seeing your from the PNW I gather your under the influence of semi skip and full skip professional sawchain.

Hope you had a good vacation weekend. You probably deserved it!

I've never felt like I would benefit from a skip/semi-skip chain (but have never tried one). My reference to fewer cutters in the cut was regarding the difference between 3/8" pitch and .325. Wouldn't the finer pitch of the .325 have more cutters in any given cut? And wouldn't this difference be directly proportional to the extra torque gained by the smaller .325 sprocket (effectively cancelling each other out with regard to power needed to drive each chain). Thus leaving kerf width differences as the primary difference in power requirements between a .325 and 3/8 pitch?


HolmenTree

Quote from: PNWRusty on June 26, 2017, 12:36:55 PMwhat just quoted
Thus leaving kerf width differences as the primary difference in power requirements between a .325 and 3/8 pitch?
Rusty what you just quoted is all you need to base your theory on. Bigger wider heavier hungrier chain takes more power to feed it, with proper sharpened angles and settings.
You don't have to over think it, unless of course if your interested in entering your saw in timbersport speed cutting competitions ;D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

PNWRusty

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 26, 2017, 11:41:28 PM

You don't have to over think it, unless of course if your interested in entering your saw in timbersport speed cutting competitions ;D

A few days ago I found a mature deadfall alder on our woodlot. It was pretty straight and well situated to buck up into rounds with minimal mucking about. I fired up the 261 C-M and made quick work of it from butt to tip while my wife waited. The saw and chain were in their element and I felt like I was winning a speed cutting competition as the rounds fell to the ground one after another. Unfortunately, my wife, who has never run a chainsaw in her life, didn't know enough to be impressed in the slightest. :(

I was looking at the fit of the airbox cover of the 261 today and noticed how well it's seals with the rubber seal by the sparkplug and the tight fit around the lipped base. I can only see three ways for air to get in (or out). There is the plenum that is force fed centrifugally filtered air by the air blades on the flywheel, the small circular hole the throttle linkage goes through and the slot for the choke/run/stop lever. Other than that it looks pretty buttoned up so, depending upon how much air the fan moves vs. how much air the engine breathes, there may be a slight supercharging effect at high rpm's.

It might be interesting to build some duct tape seals around the slot and round hole and see what happens. A supercharged 261?


HolmenTree

PNWRusty, good post well said and thought out.
Yes I noticed the partially sealed up top cover too.
Nice to see Stihl has over the last few years capitalized with the 1 piece top cover design.
I think with making a proper stable environment for the CM technology on a saw. It starts at the carburetor and a  air box under a 1 piece top cover with properly regulated air flow would definitely work with the sensors and operation of the engine.
Yes there may be a minor supercharging effect but I think cooling of the carb/sensors and seperation from cylinder crankcase heat is how the whole process comes together.
Way back in 1987/88 Jonsered along partnership with Partner they introduced the first series of air injection cleaning saws, trademarked "Turbo".
About 2 years later Husqvarna introduced their trademark "Air Injection."

In 2007 Stihl introduced their version of air injection on the MS441. I don't think they trademarked a name for it though. :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

PNWRusty

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 27, 2017, 09:40:58 AM
Way back in 1987/88 Jonsered along partnership with Partner they introduced the first series of air injection cleaning saws, trademarked "Turbo".
About 2 years later Husqvarna introduced their trademark "Air Injection."

Interesting history of centrifugal air cleaning on chainsaws. Do you know if either company's marketing departments ever implied it increased horsepower (in addition to extending air filter maintenance intervals)?

Speaking of horsepower, I've seen two horsepower specs for the 261 C-M, 4.1 hp and 4.0 hp. My owners manual and the Stihl USA website both say 4.0 hp. What is the source for the 4.1 hp spec I've seen here and elsewhere on the Internet? Not to over-think this, just curious.

HolmenTree

My owners manual says 4.1 bhp. Manual came from Germany.
Poplar Mechanics magazine voted the Jonsered Turbo 2051 as the best new product of the year in 1988. In their review I think I recall the Turbo centrifugal air cleaning  did give it a slight turbo effect :D


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

HolmenTree

Nothing to report on the 550/261 as I've been grinding stumps for the last few days.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

PNWRusty

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 27, 2017, 10:40:16 PM
My owners manual says 4.1 bhp. Manual came from Germany.


 

That makes sense. Although the manual for my 261 C-M (purchased in the U.S.) also says 3.0 kW, it says 4.0 HP (vs. 4.1). Looking at conversion tables for units of power I see that 4.0 HP (UK HP) = 4.1 HP (metric HP). So it's just two slightly different units of measure used in different markets.

HolmenTree

I've been stumping with my stump grinder every day this week. Only saw work is with the 395XP-36" lowering stumps.


  

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Kel71


ButchC

What do you run for chain when stumping?  Dad always saved a few that were on their last leg for that work, a habit that I picked up from him. Now I find myself in need for my long bar and no junker chains. I am wondering if RM type chain would be a better choice since dirt, sand rocks etc are always encountered to so extent.
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

HolmenTree

Quote from: ButchC on June 29, 2017, 10:19:20 PM
What do you run for chain when stumping?  Dad always saved a few that were on their last leg for that work, a habit that I picked up from him. Now I find myself in need for my long bar and no junker chains. I am wondering if RM type chain would be a better choice since dirt, sand rocks etc are always encountered to so extent.
Butch, I run Stihl 46RS and RM .404
Sometimes I run Stihl .404 harvester chain, that chain is  really tough.   ;D
Quote from: Kel71 on June 29, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
Plywood's a nice idea.
Kel, yep 3/8" plywood 3 feet high saves alot of  cleanup. With 3 pairs of HD hinges it folds up nice and flat so I can store it between the grinder and chipper on the trailer.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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