The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: backhoe from scratch and scrap  (Read 8490 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2017, 06:13:26 pm »
  I'm impressed, it looks like a lot of thought in the design and building.

Thanks, it took me long enough to build the thing. If I ever work my way back to the beginning in my pile of photos, I'll show the complete build. So far, I've gotten back to 2013 and still not found where it all began.

Also I guess you already know your daughter is much better looking than you. ;D

Yeah, but her welds are uglier than mine! (And that's not easy to do).


Meanwhile...
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 06:20:37 pm »
The flow control valve that I bought is designed to allow full flow in one direction and reduced flow in the other. I'm thinking it needs to control the flow _to_ the upper port on the boom cylinder, rather than _from_ the lower port to stop from having to delicately feather the controls to keep from dropping that boom so fast.

For convenience of adjusting it, I'm going to mount the thing directly to the valve stack unless somebody points out how that's a bad thing to do.

The double relief valve (hydraulic cushion valve) will be mounted on the pedestal thing holding the control valves.
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline woodmaker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: southwest N.H.
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 09:26:46 pm »
The flow control valve should meter flow coming out of the cylinder,not going in,so your metered flow would be in the rod end of the cylinder and meter flow going back to the valve,but allowing free flow into the rod end of the cylinder.

Something to think about: Welding can improve,looks rarely do  :D
franklin q80,builtrite 40,husky 372,sachs dolmar 123, dozers,excavators,loaders,tri-axle dump trucks ,autocar tractor with dump,flatbed and detachable trailers, and 8  f350 diesels

Offline woodmaker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: southwest N.H.
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 09:45:57 pm »
The only reason not to mount the flow control at the valve is that you would subject the hose to a lot of high pressure spikes,but if you mount it on the cylinder,you can make the connection with sch. 80 steel,and eliminate the spikes on the hose. just a thought.
franklin q80,builtrite 40,husky 372,sachs dolmar 123, dozers,excavators,loaders,tri-axle dump trucks ,autocar tractor with dump,flatbed and detachable trailers, and 8  f350 diesels

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2017, 08:26:26 pm »
The only reason not to mount the flow control at the valve is that you would subject the hose to a lot of high pressure spikes,but if you mount it on the cylinder,you can make the connection with sch. 80 steel,and eliminate the spikes on the hose. just a thought.

There's a decision dilemma.

I could mount the cushion valve to the cylinder and the flow control valve to the cushion valve. That puts the weight of the cushion valve on the boom and the flow control valve where I have to get off every time to adjust it.

Mounting the flow control valve and the cushion valve back nearer to the stack valves takes that weight off the boom and puts the flow control valve where I can dial in just the right drop speed for the boom.

If the cushion valve does the job I'm hoping it will, wouldn't it prevent those spikes even to the hoses connecting it to the boom cylinder? I guess this sort of thing is why engineers earn their money. :)  I have no idea how long it takes for the pressure wave of a spike to propagate through the system and no idea how long it takes for that cushion valve to react. That leaves me with still building on hope and guesses and trial and error.

When the rains stop, I'll find out if I've guessed right.  :)
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline woodmaker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: southwest N.H.
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2017, 09:57:16 pm »
My guess is that once you find the correct speed for the boom,you probably wont adjust it after that.  Good luck to you, and let us know how it works.
franklin q80,builtrite 40,husky 372,sachs dolmar 123, dozers,excavators,loaders,tri-axle dump trucks ,autocar tractor with dump,flatbed and detachable trailers, and 8  f350 diesels

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 09:34:40 am »
Made some time to work on this thing through the heat of the day yesterday. (After several days and nights of rain and cool breezes, the temperature and the humidity ran a slow, miserable race toward 100. Neither got there, but were close enough for suffering).

It starts with the parts:




Been stationary far too long:


No eggs.


Closer look at the parts:
Replacement for a 3x16, to try to get a bit more oomph in lifting the boom:


Got a glycerin filled pressure gauge and everything needed to tee it into JIC lines. Unfortunately, I forgot that my pressure and return lines are NPT.


Cushion valve:


Flow control valve (full flow one way, adjustable the other):


And two 12-inch hoses with JIC-8 fittings:


The nearest thing to an assembly manual that I have are my chicken scratchings from when I was figuring out what to order:


They are slightly less indecipherable than the scratchings from when I first plumbed the thing:



Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 09:43:25 am »
I managed to get the 3-1/2 inch cylinder hung. About 1/8 inch clearance each side at the top.


The local residents (red wasps) then let me know I was intruding:


Back at the stack valve, the red line marks the hose to the rod end (bottom) of the cylinder:


And its counterpart, the line to the top of the boom cylinder:


It's aggravating to get a crow's-foot wrench in there to torque those fittings.

Here's the assembly for plan 'A', to be installed under that stack valve:


Plan 'A' failed. Couldn't figure any way to get it to work with the hoses and fittings on hand.

Tried plan 'B' this morning -- moving things to the boom. I think I may be somewhere around plan 'F' by now. It's hanging by hoses and fittings and there's no place to mount the cushion valve. I'll have to figure out what needs to be done to make plan 'A' work.

This may work long enough for me to get it closer to my garage:


I don't like that bend in the lower 12-inch hose and I don't like things hanging from fittings.





Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 01:56:50 pm »
Hooked up the backhoe this morning. My system is not exactly a quick attach. According to the timestamps on the photos, it was 38 minutes from the time I backed up to the backhoe until it was ready to go.

The flow control works. With it turned all the way to its minimum, that boom will not lower at all. Discovered that while trying to get everything lined up.

Still don't know if the cushion valve will cure the problem of the bouncing tractor, and I still don't have a pressure gauge.





Highly sophisticated method of marking "pressure" and "tank" lines:






That's not spaghetti:


Pressure line to front loader comes from the power beyond port on the backhoe; return line from loader and backhoe tee together:


Gotta pump some life back into it and get it off the ground:






Now to align all the holes for 4 pins:




All hooked up and pinned in place:


Bad hose art:


Find something to do that interests you.

Offline tule peak timber

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1479
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Aguanga , Ca
  • Gender: Male
  • roborob
    • tule peak timber
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 02:14:30 pm »
I was going to ask about the ty-wraps , then I reread the post. I sure hope you are making your own hoses !$$$ :)
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2017, 05:39:34 pm »
I was going to ask about the ty-wraps , then I reread the post. I sure hope you are making your own hoses !$$$ :)

All the hoses, cylinders and valves came from Surplus Center. Only that stack valve gave me sticker shock. I once priced a custom hydraulic hose locally. Decided it wasn't that important to have the length perfect to the inch.

[Edit to add:]
Oops! I kinda zipped right by the ties, didn't I?

Those zip-ties save me from having to refer to the tractor manual to remind me which hose provides pressure when I have the control lever for the remote hydraulics tied down. It is:
1 for P (pressure) and
Two for Tank (or any other mnemonic you want number 2 to reference). :)
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2017, 05:47:13 pm »
I didn't intend or expect to build a 2-1/2 ton see-saw. That problem appears to be cured now.

It felt pretty bad when it happened to me, but sitting almost above the pivot point, I didn't get the full effect. When my daughter dropped that boom and reflexes made her release the control -- just like me -- I was standing where I could see the front bucket lift on the first bounce. That's the whole tractor with front end loader and subframe being lifted. All the force exerted by that extended lever had to pass through the swing pivot joint. Nothing broke but hydraulic seals.

Makes me feel pretty good about my welds, now, at least.
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 11:37:13 pm »
The backhoe had a droopy leg. One of the stabilizer cylinders wouldn't hold pressure. This is one of the cylinders I had paid to have repaired. They fixed the external leak and, apparently, created an internal one.

I had built the stabilizer mounts specifically for these slightly odd cylinders from an old forklift. Now the mount needs to fit the more common (and cheap!) tie-rod type cylinders with a clevis end.






Luckily, I had a couple of chunks of 1/2 inch steel left over from making the 'dogbone' for the backhoe bucket. This one is just right to make two new ears for a cylinder.

Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 11:47:42 pm »

Those are 3/32 inch welding rods holding a little spacing between the new bracket ears and the old.





I'm not sure if it needs that spacing, but welding a 1/2 inch flat bar over a combined 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch flat bar, and needing the holes to stay in line afterwards, I wanted somewhere for the weld to shrink without changing that alignment. Same spacing and technique was used for each side.


Each was tacked two places top and bottom and then welded along the top and bottom edges. 1/8 inch 7018 rod at 115A, DCEP.




I'm not good at overhead or vertical up. I'm even worse at those while standing on my head with a fan blowing hot, humid air around.
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 11:55:20 pm »
The old brackets had to be cut off after the new ones were welded in place.


I used a cut-off disc to cut the 1/4 inch top and bottom plates back a little bit because I was too chicken to use a plasma cutter and risk gouging the new brackets.





Sawzall took care of the old brackets.



Find something to do that interests you.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2017, 12:12:31 am »
Now it gets funky. Gotta weld around the lower back corner from the underside, up that sloping back edge and wrap it around the top back corner to the top weld. It also needs to be welded along the front cut edge where the old bracket was.

Miller recommends about a 15% reduction in amperage for overhead welding (with typical disclaimers, of course). Since I usually get decent results from 115A running horizontal, flat, that recommendation would put me at about 98A ...



Oops! That's a red machine. Do blue machine physics apply to red machines?



WARNING! It is well-documented that some welding attracts mutant steel seagulls with diarrhea! (Photographic evidence of their attacks may be found all over the Internet, however, there are no known photographs of the actual attackers).

If you find yourself victimized by these foul creatures...


The most effective cure for those effects is a grinder.


Second try, using 95A. Just attracted a lone scout this time -- maybe a wren or sparrow.





Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Before welding the two (mostly) vertical edges, the pin was a snug fit requiring a few taps with the hammer to go home. After the seagull attack, the pin goes in with just hand pressure.

I tested with a 3x8 cylinder left from another project. It works, but I'm going to need a 3-1/2 or 4 inch cylinder; the 3 can't pick up the rear of the tractor.
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline Kbeitz

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Millville, Pa.
  • Gender: Male
  • Never enough time...
    • My Hobbies
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2017, 08:35:09 am »
It's nice to see someone still using a stick welder.
Collector and builder of many things.
I have a
machine shop
Wood work shop
And a Weld shop
And now a saw mill
and a bunch of new forum friends.

Offline grouch

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: south central KY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm recyclable!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 07:03:00 pm »
It's nice to see someone still using a stick welder.

Just wish I wasn't so out of practice. Those welds look like I'm starting all over again, even though there's about 100 lbs of rods burned into that backhoe. Frustrating.
Find something to do that interests you.

Offline GRANITEstateMP

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • Location: NOTTINGHAM, NH
  • Gender: Male
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2017, 11:28:37 am »
grouch,

we use the "zip tie" method of hydraulic hose ID at the farm.  It works really well, unless my wife hooks something up...
LIVE FREE OR DIE
Hakki Pilke 1x37
Kubota M6040
Load Trail 12ft Dump Trailer

Offline woodmaker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: southwest N.H.
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: backhoe from scratch and scrap
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2017, 09:56:27 pm »
I know this isn't as fast as the zip ties,but i change every attachment to have one male fitting and one female fitting,so there can be no mistake.I don't let other people use my attachments,and i don't use theirs ,so it works in my world.I do the same thing with my older fisher snow plows also.
franklin q80,builtrite 40,husky 372,sachs dolmar 123, dozers,excavators,loaders,tri-axle dump trucks ,autocar tractor with dump,flatbed and detachable trailers, and 8  f350 diesels