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Timber Theft

Started by jwilly3879, May 26, 2017, 06:22:52 PM

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jwilly3879

Had an interesting phone call from the local EnCon Police about alleged timber theft. The landowner adjacent to a job we did last summer has filed a complaint of timber being cut on his property. The officer wants to meet with me to show her the boundary line that we used. It is pretty obvious, old wire fence and stone wall and we never even went close to it.

The biggest gripe I have is that the landowner who filed the complaint is an absentee owner and has no idea where his line is.

He would like to be present when I take a walk in the woods with the police so he can locate his line.

I told the officer I would be happy to show her the boundary but fail to understand how the landowner can file a complaint without knowing where his line is. After this allegation I have no desire to show him his line. They contend that many trees were cut, I explained to her that the timber we cut should be obvious since it was done less than a year ago and that the property in question has been cut twice in the last 15 years so there would be many stumps but not fresh cut.

I hate having to defend myself against a baseless allegation. I am confident that no theft occurred as we located both ends of the line and flagged the entire 2000' except where it required hip boots.

Just needed to vent.

BargeMonkey

 Vent away, you've got every right to be mad, another dark side of the industry no one likes to talk about. The thieves down the road from me, who recently bought another skidder and parade on FB under a different company name every yr are directly the reason for the change of NYS timber theft laws. Drop a skidder of on a weekend landowner, cut the best in 3 days and run, they did it all over down here but it's not "correct" to point them out. We had a similar problem with baiting on the border of our farm near stateland a few yrs ago, they caught the person but good luck proving your innocence sometimes. 👍

ehp

It happens here as well but with our by-law  99.9% get caught and charged but it still happens 2 or 3 times a year . Here you cannot go by fences as lots of bush lots have 5 or more fences ran threw them so we find the corner stakes and run the correct line but you still have to watch as land owners will move the corner stakes so their place is bigger

ehp

Our by-law is armed with one of the best GPS systems out there and sure know how to run it

coxy

that stinks jwilly I have not gone through that in years thank god its a pain but every now and again you come out good and may end up as friends  we went through the ringer with an older lady and her gson about 15years ago I ended up getting it surveyed and found out the line was over 60ft off to my good after every thing was settled she paid for the survey and I cut the logs on her place I still here from her gson every now and then she passed away about 9years ago and they sold the property  keep us posted  good bad or other wise  ;D

treeslayer2003

Quote from: jwilly3879 on May 26, 2017, 06:22:52 PM
Had an interesting phone call from the local EnCon Police about alleged timber theft. The landowner adjacent to a job we did last summer has filed a complaint of timber being cut on his property. The officer wants to meet with me to show her the boundary line that we used. It is pretty obvious, old wire fence and stone wall and we never even went close to it.

The biggest gripe I have is that the landowner who filed the complaint is an absentee owner and has no idea where his line is.

He would like to be present when I take a walk in the woods with the police so he can locate his line.

I told the officer I would be happy to show her the boundary but fail to understand how the landowner can file a complaint without knowing where his line is. After this allegation I have no desire to show him his line. They contend that many trees were cut, I explained to her that the timber we cut should be obvious since it was done less than a year ago and that the property in question has been cut twice in the last 15 years so there would be many stumps but not fresh cut.

I hate having to defend myself against a baseless allegation. I am confident that no theft occurred as we located both ends of the line and flagged the entire 2000' except where it required hip boots.

Just needed to vent.
i been thru that. some times folks panic and assume you are up to no good, some times they simply have no clue as to who owns what, and some times they try threats thinking the dumb logger will just pay them to go away. all three need to think about what they are doing. it sure has got my bp up a few times over the years. last time it happened i had flagged the lines very well. the renter ran back and told me i was going to jail. i asked her if she saw my flags, what flags? when the real adjoining owner got there he apologized and we shook hands, he knew full well i was right. some of this comes from the public thinking all logging is evil. we need to change that but its hard when school teaches wrong point of view instead of fact.

4x4American

Quote from: BargeMonkey on May 26, 2017, 06:36:06 PM
Vent away, you've got every right to be mad, another dark side of the industry no one likes to talk about. The thieves down the road from me, who recently bought another skidder and parade on FB under a different company name every yr are directly the reason for the change of NYS timber theft laws. Drop a skidder of on a weekend landowner, cut the best in 3 days and run, they did it all over down here but it's not "correct" to point them out. We had a similar problem with baiting on the border of our farm near stateland a few yrs ago, they caught the person but good luck proving your innocence sometimes. 👍


Many ppl have told me that a local theif known round here is the direct reason for the timber theft laws, he's in jail now from what I'm told..I can't help but wonder if it's the same person we're talking aboot eh
Boy, back in my day..

killamplanes

I've got a friend that had a pretty big logging company here. He bought so much timber him and his help were several years behind. So he got some out of state contract cutters. Apparently set them loose with little guidance, long story short I hear 240 wo, walnuts of a different owners were cut. That was 4 months ago no end to suit is near. What a mess. He pulled anchor and left the state. All around bad deal but I never get involved got my own dog and pony show....
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

dgdrls

There are a few of those "Loggers" here in Central and Northern NY who have been repeatedly
caught and charged only to get off with little to no penalty.

Just have to be prepared, most important as Coxy showed is a good up to date survey and lines marked in the field
before you start cutting,  then have a copy of the cutting contract on site so when the inevitable happens
you can share the documents and end it in 5 minutes

D

coxy

another thing to watch for is people in the 480a forestry plan trying to sell you there logs on there own never checked in to it but who would take the heat over that the LO or you

jwilly3879

I have done the research on the 480's and 480a's, under 480 the 6% is paid to the Town and under 480a it is paid to the county and returned to the Town but the DEC needs to be involved.

At least under 480a the management plan needs to be followed but under 480 the land can just sit and never be harvested which places a burden on the other taxpayers in Town. We have a 480 lot here the was placed under 480 in the seventies and has never been cut. The property currently has a full assessment of $480,000 but with the exemption they are paying taxes on $80,000. 40 years of reduced assessment has lost the Town many tax dollars. They are finally cutting some timber but complaining loudly over the 6% of stumpage they must pay the Town.

The crazy thing with the 480 law is that the exemption goes with the property, not the owner. The 480a needs to be updated when the property is sold.

loggerman1959

It only take 2 or 3 of these bad apples to ruin it for the rest of us . A few well publicized cases make the news and we all come under scrutiny . Folks think all loggers are dishonest and timber thieves . I can't tell you how many times I've seen beautiful wood on the other side of a boundary line way back in the middle of no where , and knew no one would ever know if I cut it , yet I stayed off it . No one ever sees that , just the news that some low life ripped off some poor folks ....




coxy

what I'm asking is if the LO sells you the logs they know they are in the tax law you don't and cut them who is in the wrong you or the LO

jwilly3879

Don't really know the answer to that.

We always check the tax rolls and that will show if it is a 480 or a 480a parcel.

Frickman

I have been accused of stealing timber many times. Usually the accuser has no grounds for the accusation, and as stated above. doesn't know where the line is or tries to move the line to grab more acreage. One particular case I was accused of stealing an acre of timber from a recently subdivided property in a local subdivision. It just so happened the surveyor was still working in the neighborhood so I helped him remark the line. The accuser did not even have the brains to remove the stakes from the original survey, He just tore off the pink flagging tape. The surveyor and I just ran the original lines and reflagged the stakes he had placed a year earlier. Problem solved.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

MbfVA

In VA cutting timber without permission will cost the offender 3 times the value.  That is if the lines are marked, I think.  Universal here for both posted and property line marking is three silver marks at a certain height on the P/Line trees.

One logger who was caught a few years ago was an elected County Supervisor in neighboring county (same as county commissioners in other states).  Embarrassing but it had allegedly shielded him from consequences through several prior complaints.  A Charlottesville journalist got wind and basically took him down as I recall.  I think the voters in his county ended his political career soon thereafter, too.  Jim H who runs a wood milling business in Albemarle County and who is a member here may know that story better than I do.

The C-ville area has a LOT of absentee owners (and residents) with high dollar land (and buildings), etc.  Alan Alda sold the 300 acres he bought during the filming of "The Four Seasons" a few years back.  I think the Fed borrows money in C-ville when it runs short, of what they have left after paying city taxes.

That 6% thing for timber with deferred taxes is interesting.  "Land use" taxation is king in VA, and the only comeback is if any of the land is developed later, some deferred taxes and interest must be paid ("rollback taxes"), but only on the required home site portion of most larger parcels (which usually are therefore structured appropriately).

Recently a lot of localities have tightened down on abuses.  "Cutting the grass" with a big finishing mower cost a retired Fortune 100 CEO his land use on almost 1300 acres, but he then did conservation easements which earns permanent land use valuation in VA (and some nice resellable tax credits, best in the US, in addition to federal deductions).

I have it on my agenda to mark our property lines better, using our 2011 survey.  The adjoining landowner to our north now lives in California and has all his parcels under conservation easement.  His pines that adjoin our hardwoods were thinned a few years ago and I thought the loggers did a great job with no consequences to our land (good forester involved).  I too am suspicious of the logging frat since I have seen some really bad haircuts, but they generally do what the client asks, so just like with bad teens, one needs to primarily blame the parents (but not letting the teens/loggers off the hook either).
www.ordinary.com (really)

ohiowoodchuck

It's good practice for a landowner to know his lines. I had my whole place surveyed and actually helped the surveyor every time he he went out to do something. I had him mark the line every 100 foot or so and I drove a steel fence post on his mark. I can stand at one post and look left or right and see the other post. It protects me so I know exactly where the line is and if I want to cut a tree I'm 100% sure that the adjoining lawn owner won't have a grip. Old fence was all the way around the place but it wasn't exact.
Education is the best defense against the media.

jwilly3879


Rechecked the line yesterday and the closest my son got to it is 50 yards. As I mentioned before the complainant's lot has been cut twice that I know of and I found that the last harvest actually went over the line into the lot we harvested.

In speaking with the LO we cut for, I found out that the LO that filed the complaint has never been to the property he owns. He was told by a prospective buyer that timber had been harvested and that is the basis for his complaint.

Should be an interesting conversation with the EnCon Officer next week. If the LO does show up I have some words for him also. Filing a false complaint is frowned upon.

coxy

I am a believer of paying extra for the surveyor to blaze and paint the property lines or the LO going with the surveyor and doing it him/her self  I remember my neighbor buying the 80a next to him in 1985 I was 15 and painted and blazed the line for him and every few years I go back and paint them again the marks never go away flagging tape never stays to long  I have also seen people paint over and around the flagging tape this way after the tape falls off there is still a ring around the tree where the tape was  I think it should be law that the LO every 2-3 years should have to remark there property lines

wannaergo

A couple years ago around here, a guy went to his camp and found his 40 acres completely slicked off. not a merchantable tree standing. I heard his daughter forged his wife's signatures on the timber contracts, did it all via phone and fax.  The logger and forester who worked the sale had all the paperwork in order, and the only guy who wasn't in the loop was the poor guy who actually owned and used the camp. I guess he was trying to figure out what happened, he thought somebody just moved in and hammered it. I don't know if he ever found out that his own kid got the stumpage money..
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

coxy

does anyone know how true it is that if you have a mortgage on your property you not supposed to sell the logs unless the bank oks it

WDH

In Georgia, you have to get a release from the bank.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Scott

That's usually the case. It's always best to check with the lender holding the mortgage or anyone who may also have an interest in the property or reservation to the timber if the seller does not have clear title to the property and its associated timber.

Also be aware of the timber rights on lands sold under a land contract and your state laws regarding the wife as also being a joint owner. All must be in agreement to the cutting of the timber.
~Ron

Ox

My mortgage states nothing is to be cut without a bunch of paperwork and such.  I guess I won't charge them for the cutting of trees that was threatening "their" investment.  Or the harvesting of trees for milling into lumber to improve "their" investment.  Truth be told, they don't need to know a darn thing in my view.  They're basically tripling their money over 30 years with minimum payments so I don't feel too bad about things...
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Puffergas

First track we bought, long time ago, was from a young man. But when we looked it up, he didn't own it, his mother did. She did sign the contract for sonny, with a sour look. It was mainly firewood.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

mills

Several years ago I had a deal fall through at the last minute. 60 acres of big, long, tall poplar and red oak on a bluff overlooking the Ohio River. Had the equipment ready to move in, the trucking, and the mill all lined up waiting on the weather to break. Come to find out that the guy who lived on the place and worked out the deal didn't own the land. His uncle owned it. Some how or another this guy thought he would get a commission for lining out the cutting. His uncle was more than a little ticked when he found out about it. And then to beat all heck, the punk tried to make his uncle believe that I was the one pushing to make a deal. Luckily, he had taken advantage of his family before, so the conversation between his uncle and me started off heated, but cooled off fairly quickly. By the end he was trying to get me to calm down. I offered up the paperwork I had, and tried to get his uncle to press charges on the guy, but he wouldn't do it. He wanted to keep it in family. Learnt my lesson. Now I either deal with people I know, or  pull up property valuation reports to verify ownership.
Dang it all, but there was enough value on this tract that I was seeing visions of a new skidder, knuckleboom, and semi. Now I know I was lucky to have stayed out of jail.  >:(

MbfVA

Definitely read your mortgage, or deed of trust & note in our state. Many lenders don't contemplate timber value as a factor, so it may not be mentioned.  I would consider local law & decisions, however, since under a tortured interpretation of some docs, it could be taken as being a deliberate devaluing of the property, "waste", which could get some lenders excited unnecessarily, esp if they were looking for a reason.

BTW, in business law courses, I learned a lot about what happens when there is fraud (the forged signatures for example) involved in the sequence of events.  It can sometimes bail out the involved innocents, or hurt them, depends.  But due dillegence always--ignorance of something you should have checked on definitely will hurt your cause.

Around here, I am fairly certain big loggers make some sort of ownership/title check before signing a contract, esp a big one, probably something like what CLS surveyors do.  I know our surveyor did.

I'm a CPA not an atty, so please don't rely on what I say without consulting one of them.
www.ordinary.com (really)

ohiowoodchuck

Quote from: Ox on May 28, 2017, 05:13:49 PM
My mortgage states nothing is to be cut without a bunch of paperwork and such.  I guess I won't charge them for the cutting of trees that was threatening "their" investment.  Or the harvesting of trees for milling into lumber to improve "their" investment.  Truth be told, they don't need to know a darn thing in my view.  They're basically tripling their money over 30 years with minimum payments so I don't feel too bad about things...
I agree 100% percent it's none of there business the only thing they need to worry about is if your making payments. They don't understand stuff when you try to explain it to them till your blue in the face so why bother.
Education is the best defense against the media.

mike_belben

On the subject of surveying, whats should i expect to pay ballpark?   I have 5 acres, completely rectangular and straight.  thickly wooded and brushy but nothing you cant walk thru with a machete.  Middle tennessee.

Im logging my place to site a homestead and one of the kin to an abandoned 10acres next door keeps eying what im doing.  They think that rotten scarlet oak over there is gold.  Ive got news.
Praise The Lord

dgdrls

Quote from: mike_belben on May 28, 2017, 10:50:07 PM
On the subject of surveying, whats should i expect to pay ballpark?   I have 5 acres, completely rectangular and straight.  thickly wooded and brushy but nothing you cant walk thru with a machete.  Middle tennessee.

Im logging my place to site a homestead and one of the kin to an abandoned 10acres next door keeps eying what im doing.  They think that rotten scarlet oak over there is gold.  Ive got news.

No idea of the survey market in Tenn.
Do you need a full survey or do you already have one and want the lines marked?
If you already have one request the stake-out from the LS who did the survey
otherwise I'd start here https://www.taps-inc.com//mod/directory/index.php?action=listings&letter=&search_by=category&directory_category_id=1&search=Search

D

WDH

We always did a title search to verify the true owners of the property and to assure that their were no liens that needed a release before cutting timber.

The law is the law whether you like it or not.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nativewolf

Quote from: MbfVA on May 28, 2017, 08:31:25 PM
Definitely read your mortgage, or deed of trust & note in our state. Many lenders don't contemplate timber value as a factor, so it may not be mentioned.  I would consider local law & decisions, however, since under a tortured interpretation of some docs, it could be taken as being a deliberate devaluing of the property, "waste", which could get some lenders excited unnecessarily, esp if they were looking for a reason.

BTW, in business law courses, I learned a lot about what happens when there is fraud (the forged signatures for example) involved in the sequence of events.  It can sometimes bail out the involved innocents, or hurt them, depends.  But due dillegence always--ignorance of something you should have checked on definitely will hurt your cause.

Around here, I am fairly certain big loggers make some sort of ownership/title check before signing a contract, esp a big one, probably something like what CLS surveyors do.  I know our surveyor did.

I'm a CPA not an atty, so please don't rely on what I say without consulting one of them.

Most states have encouraged counties to go digital for property records, at least you can view digitally.  This way you can look up property ownership very easily.  In virginia no reason not to check ownership
Liking Walnut

timberking

A few years ago we were starting a first thin on land I had bought for the company.  The iron was no more off the trailer when 3 cars of lawmen showed up.  Everybody's name was run and one guy had an outstanding ticket and got a ride to town.  After I explained who owned what, off they went.  They were called by a person in Houston that heard Grandma's timber was being stolen.  They were crossing our land but no one around to hear my problem with shutting down the job, trespassing, lost wages and the stress of having to deal with it.  Absentee landowner with a telephone.  I think I may be due monentary relief!

Woodhauler

I have several horror storys about being called a timber thief! One of the best ones to date was a High and mighty lawyer from Mass that owns lots of land in my small town! It was a day or two after Christmas several years ago when my neighbor drove by woodlot I had bought stumpage on and said there was a fancy buggy from mass parked there and two guys heading into woods. I rode up and found them, The lawyer and his son!!!  We had a heated discussion about ownership of property! He said he owned it and had a deed with him to prove it! Back to his vehicle we went, and low and behold he had a deed. ONE problem he had was he had owner ship of 27 acres of land on the village rd in town and was very firm about that! I nicely explained to him that we was standing on the valley rd, and village rd was across town! He never did apologize for calling me a thief, but told me if I could find his lot I could cut it. I told him no thanks!!!!!!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

mike_belben

Flip side of the coin..  Timber here on the county line where i live now gets stolen often, and you cant get the law to do a thing.   I was 990 miles away and got laughed at over the phone by two deputies when i wanted them to stop a known timber thief my neighbor had just run off my land for the second time.  They scout during the day and put reflective deer tacks into the money trees.  They pretend they got turned around tracking deer if anyone asks.  Then they come grab the butt logs at night. Very common to happen at houses owned by snowbirds or retirees with another home. 

I solved the issue by tracking down who this person was, getting their phone number and leaving a message that if he stole a twig from me hed better make it a small one because one day a stranger was gonna ring the doorbell @ xyz address and beat him senseless with it. 

Fella has not been seen on our road since.
Praise The Lord

jwilly3879

Meeting with the EnCon Officer on Thursday. She said no official complaint has been filed, she is just gathering information.

I'll post results of our meeting.

MbfVA

VA has lots of things on line but be very careful--many that are not directly tied to the county clerk's office are perpetually out of date. VAMANET.COM is a prime example, with GIS not far "behind" if not moreso.  Sometimes it is the fault of the county not updating, and sometimes the vendor for not posting what they were given, promptly.

The only truly current on line records in VA are the ones available by paid subscription with individual counties, generally used by attorneys and title search companies, and mostly available in our more rural counties since they make a fair amount of money on the service.

God forbid it should be statewide, that would mean working together and the lord-god-high-executioner circuit court county clerks in VA would not hear of that.  Highest paid, 8 year terms, longest of any state or local elected officials, set up in each county thanks to the set up they got from our 1920s governor, Harry Byrd who viewed them as his eyes n ears at the local level.  Our most recent clerk served well into her 90s and rarely was in the office last x number of years.  She was elected same time I was to the Board of Supervisors, and told me then she'd only serve 1 term "of course".  She was preceded by a high school shop teacher who had never worked in the office and had to learn it afterwards from the deputy clerk he defeated in the election.  Her first term began in 1992 and she did not "let go" until 2 years ago.

The kindly voters term limited me, giving me a chance to pull the arrows out of my back (and front) in peace.  Now I just get fussed at by customers voting to come to our restaurant but who wait to the last minute to make holiday reservations for their groups of 25.

www.ordinary.com (really)

coxy

Quote from: MbfVA on May 29, 2017, 05:13:23 PM
who waits to the last minute to make holiday reservations for their groups of 25.
ummmmmm ;D

Corley5

  A few years back an elderly farmer who had amassed a large collection of real estate agreed to sell a forty on a land contract with the stipulation in the contract that no timber was to be cut until the property was paid for in full.  The new owner proceeded to log the land, pay it off with the timber proceeds and then asked to buy more real state from the old boy under the same agreement.  He didn't get to buy anymore and Emil had his ground logged himself. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

BargeMonkey

We sit next to a guy and his wife at the auction usually every Saturday night, very decent people from a pretty respected family here. The subject of logs come up, I explain I can come over in 90? Days, wasn't a big job, I flat out asked him if they where in trouble for $$$ and he said no, buying the wife a new car. I see him 2wks later and he asks me what RO logs are worth, I knew right then and asked who was cutting it, told him what was going to happen and wished him the best. They started on Monday, "we will sit down on friday", hammered 5ld of logs out and Thursday the skidder was loaded and they ran, place looks like a bomb went off. He calls us and asks us what to do and to ask if we could help him clean the mess up, I hung the phone up on him. They are going to get away with it and because my area has a heroin epidemic the cops don't really care about trees to much, these guys pray on people who they know won't spend the 5-8k for the lawyer to fight them. I did work for a lawyer in Delaware County who was one of the few to get a judgement against these guys, but good luck.  I've watched the timber thieves here get more desperate because of policy's implemented, how some of these bids are being set up, foresters know who is who down here and are sick of the crap in the newspaper and themselves being publicly humiliated, i dont have to work 30miles from home the rest of my life if i go at a reasonable pace because there is so much honest wood to be had, but again im daydreaming 😂. We do alot of the headers and finish work for these guys from out of town because of our main business involves glacial deposits, just did one last summer for Prentice/Carlisle out of ME with a big logger, we see where things are headed for alot of work in the state. I know for a fact there's 3 guys in my area who cannot ship to a certain sawmill, call all they want the logs will never be picked up because they won't buy or be involved with stolen stumpage. The daughter in the one family messaged me on FB about 1yr ago, got talking and I asked if they where busy ?, then I said something about the western boundary on that job was very well marked and name of who in that town who is high up in the foodchain was watching that job for me, the dinner conversation that night had to be epic, 😂 Without some of these buyers and sawmills these guys would cease to exist almost immediately. There's a large concentration of a religious group quietly poking the bear north of me, actually all over NY state buying up entire areas and working super cheap, don't think that these backyard sawmills aren't where alot of this stolen wood is going but good luck proving it.  Unfortunately alot of NY is slimy and if you don't know your region I honestly think your safer at the bus station on Green street in Albany @1am than you are walking certain woodlots with certain guys. 
I got accused once, funny story that wasn't funny at the time and I did nothing wrong. We have the best local surveyor in my area on speed dial, of his guys will come walk lines on a weekend if we even question something, the risk is to great even for an honest mistake. We are down at the tax office constantly pulling maps, 2 of us have paid "apps" on our phones for walking lines, the resources are out there. Very few "large" chunks of land down here and you can't assume anything, before some changes where made these subdivisions where cut up in weird shapes and you can get in trouble fast.

MbfVA

Call me sooner next time Coxy  :D 🐓🐓
www.ordinary.com (really)

Lumberjohn

Had a similar thing happen to me back in the late 80s. A neighbor in my town had a farm outside of town with some nice timber patches on it. We knew each other well and I didn't think he wanted it cut because I was sure he would get a price off of me.
Well these 2 dopers make a deal of lumber as a payment and as soon as they were done, they skated on him ( he never got his lumber). Only then does he call me, to try to get this problem fixed. I was livid and said- Carl you knew I bought timber, I see this as being insulted twice, once by you not getting a price from me, and secondly wanting me to make it all better between you and the thieves- Sorry about your luck.

sealark37

A long time neighbor called me and asked me to come help him find his property line.  We scratched around for a while, and found the corners to a 600 ft straight boundary line.  A developer had contracted to cut the timber from the adjoining 60 acres next to this line.  The logger had over-stepped the line by about 30 feet, and had cut eighty prime (30 inch dbh) SYP trees.  He left the smaller trees in the strip.   Owner called the developer, who denied any responsibility, and referred him to the local logger who did the cut.  The logger denied that he cut over the property line, and refused to come and see the evidence.  My neighbor calmly walked away, to make a call to his attorney.  The attorney told him that the logger had numerous judgements against him for the same thing.  To cap it all, the logger's wife owned all his equipment, even his motorcycle, so there was no way to collect a judgement if he got one.  So now my friend has a dozen new neighbors touching his line.  He says that they are nice folks.   Regards, Clark

MbfVA

Not an atty, but the spousal protection sounds thin.  I would think a good atty would contest the ownership question via a debtor's hearing, etc, in VA.  Make enough trouble and eventually you'd get some money and in addition, put the sorry SOB out of business.  Here loggers have to deal with VDOForestry which might take a dim view of judgment dodging.  Maybe I'm just hopeful but a hangdog atty might just be successful.

Sunlight is the best thing for people like that.  Too many unpaid judgements will eventually sink him, wife or no wife.

I'd get the authorities in there, too, since theft was involved.  Probably can pin down what when who, etc, if you get the right investigator involved.  That might scare the guy into paying up.

The crew that thinned pines next to us caused no trouble whatsoever.  Then again, the forester involved was ours, also.  Now works for VDOF.

I guess the bottom line is watch your land!  The best defense against crime is eyes n ears.
www.ordinary.com (really)

LeeB

Does the developer have no responsibility?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

sandsawmill14

we had a logger cross the line on us and cut about 20 -25  r/o w/o trees over 30 years ago  ::) when the logger realized what happened he stopped the job and told the land owner what had happened who went with the logger to my great granddads house and told him what and where it happened and my grandpa said dont worry about it :o so the logger went back to the woods with the other land owner and counted the stumps and picked the same number of w/o as the number of stumps + 10 more for "good measure" that he had close to the line and left them to make up for the mistake :D its a shame disputes cant be handled on the front porch like this anymore ::) both have been dead since the mid 90s but our families are still good friends and the trees are still growing  :)  and that w/o grove makes for some good deer hunting when the acorns start to drop ;D

oh and that "good measure" was for everything we did around here :) when me and my brother were selling fire wood dad made sure that when we delivered a rank of fire wood it had better have at least 2 big wheel barrow loads of extra wood for good measure on the truck and we wood stack the 2x4x8 stack of wood and throw the extra in a pile next to it so the guy could see what he was getting ;) we only got accused of shorting one guy in the many years we cut wood so dad went and looked at what we took him and said ok they will be back with some more quick as they can cut it so in about 2 hrs we were back with another 1/2 rank put it in a pile and dad ask if he was satisfied and he agreed that was made right  ::) dad shook his hand and told him to not to call for anymore wood as we wouldnt be bring it  ;D :D  dad said we give the guy a rank and 1/4 to start with and for us to just keep doing what we were doing and not worry about it  :)

we also bough ear corn by the barrel back then from a different guy across the road and used a 55 gallon barrel to measure it and you got 1 5 gallon bucket of corn for every barrel for good measure :)
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Magicman

I had three Red Oaks logged off of my property and it was not the logger's fault.  The trees were painted for harvest by the Forester who also happens to be my Forester.  The property line was not painted in that area and he made a mistake. 

I was paid for the trees and the property line is now painted.  All is well.
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MbfVA

Did we just see the best case possible made for, gasp, good n friendly communication?  Works almost every time, too bad my friends in the political world have lost sight of same.

Just as with Richard Nixon, the worst crime was the coverup.
www.ordinary.com (really)

jwilly3879

Well I spent two hours walking the property line that we flagged as the boundary of the lot we cut and she was satisfied with the location, especially when it wound up at marked corner. Turned around and followed the flags back to the road, on the east side of the line she could see where the complaint's lot had been harvested in the past and on our side nothing had been cut within 100' of the line I flagged.

Apparently the complaining LO had the Adirondack Park Agency come and flag the wetlands on his property and when they do that they flag the wetland boundaries, even onto adjoining parcels. When he came for a visit he believed the wetland flags were his property line even though they go several hundred feet onto the lot we harvested.

The officer was satisfied we didn't cross the property line and thanked me for my time and assistance. All and all it worked out OK. If the complaining LO wants to pursue it further he will need to have his property surveyed.

coxy

 8) 8) 8) good to here  thought maybe you where going to ask for a go fund me page for bail money  :D :D

Ox

Sounds like your typical city slicker with some land and he's all "my land, my land, thieveing this and that."  just to find out he's an idiot who jumped to conclusions.  This could have been handled in a much more elegant and respectful manner.  You know - the countrified way.  :)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
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Puffergas

Then that same slicker will have no respect for someone else's land.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

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jwilly3879

I asked the officer if she had any objection to me sending the complaining LO a nice letter thanking him for the allegation and the opportunity to spend my time slogging through a swamp this morning with a very nice ECO. Apparently he was a little miffed that I refused to let him accompany us on our walk and show him his line.

Ox

Quote from: Puffergas on June 01, 2017, 06:21:10 PM
Then that same slicker will have no respect for someone else's land.
That's RIGHT.  >:(

jwilly - and what did she say?
:laugh:
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

4x4American

I'm glad you didn't let the dumb adj. LO walk with you guys...for all we know the LO did all this just to get his line showed to him
Boy, back in my day..

jwilly3879

She said it was up to me. Thought it might be an opportunity to suggest it may have been simpler to just contact the LO we cut for who would have put him in contact with me. I would have gladly showed him his line rather than filing a complaint with the DEC and costing us all taxpayer dollars.

We take a great deal of pride in our work and have never had a dissatisfied LO.

I will probably give him the benefit of the doubt, realizing he had no idea what he was looking at.

Ironically the harvest done about 15 years ago on his land strayed over the line into the lot we cut.

treeslayer2003

there are all kinds in this world. do this long enough and you may see them all.

WDH

Sometimes it is hard to take the high road  :) :-\. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

jwilly3879

WDH, I hear you about the high road. I sometimes need to take it even when I feel like telling someone how I feel.

I am a Building Inspector in two Towns so as a public official I need to be careful what I say or more accurately, how I say it.

SwampDonkey

First order of business up this way I have witnessed for 30 years now is when farms are bought and sold the woods are most always clear cut by the seller or the buyer. I don't know if any mortgage rules apply here on cutting woods. If so, then I guess they approve of all clear cutting.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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BargeMonkey

Quote from: jwilly3879 on June 02, 2017, 04:27:33 PM
WDH, I hear you about the high road. I sometimes need to take it even when I feel like telling someone how I feel.

I am a Building Inspector in two Towns so as a public official I need to be careful what I say or more accurately, how I say it.
😂 I have to stay silent sometimes because down here sometimes because you never know who is related to who, who works for who, or who is ready to throw you under a bus. I assume you guys have the same "small town" politics up there.

jwilly3879

Got an email from the ECO yesterday and she has sent her report to the LO indicating she felt, based on her investigation, that no theft occurred and that should the LO want to continue to pursue the complaint he will need to have a survey done.

He bought the property sight unseen and wound up with 44 acres of wetland that is unbuild-able and probably unsellable. As the Building Inspector/ Zoning Officer I have had several calls about the property and have passed along the info that it is not a build-able lot.

MbfVA

The usual disclaimer that I'm a CPA and not an attorney, but depending on how the mortgage or deed of trust in our state is written, there could be a lien attached to the timber. Whether or not anyone would attempt to enforce that kind of lien, and what rules would then apply, definitely not a question for nonlawyer.  And one would need to consult a lawyer in the jurisdiction involved.

I recall the concept of "holder in due course" from my business law training but that mostly relates to checks and some other instruments, and what the holder of a check can rely on as to there being problems in the "chain of title".

Another thing that would trouble me if I were a logger & there was uncertainty about the paperwork, would be the traditional lag (around here up to two years,  sometimes longer) between paying for the timber, and when the timber has to be cut & money flows back to the logger.   That period of time allows for a lot of mischief.

I would be cautious about paperwork on any major bucks job, since attention levels tend to rise in step with the amount of money involved. Duh.
www.ordinary.com (really)

WDH

In Georgia, timber is real property.  If there is a lien on a piece of land and the timber is offered for sale, the institution holding the lien has to provide a release for the buyer of the timber to get clear title. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ProductofPoint

I usually MAKE my landowners hike the property line with me before any tree's are painted. I had one case where I had marked a handful of silver maple but wasn't entirely sure where the line was. Kept me up for nights. I finally had the landowner come out and walk it with me... I was off by 200 ft. It pays to double check. 

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