TSI

[mike_belben]

Im in middle TN @2000ft elevation in prime appalachian hardwoods.  Have been culling rubbish to restore good timber and correct for the typical succession of high gradings that most stands have suffered from before being subdivided and sold off for residential lots. Our best trees are walnuts, oaks, poplar and hickories. We have black cherry but it arches over by 4" dbh.

in my opinion we are plagued by red maple, scarlet oak, sourwood, sassafras, black gum and to a lesser degree beech trees overtaking the shade intolerant high value hardwoods and just crowding the woods into a big tangled vine, thorn and ivy thicket that a young oak cant break out of. 

Should i have any reservations about trimming these weed trees way way back to give my hardwoods a chance to reestablish dominance?  Some patches are so bad that ill struggle to leave one worthy crop tree standing in a 100ft circle.  Like little clearcuts broken up by a here and there cluster of nice stems.  Forestor i had out told me cut 70% but if im choosy id probably end up cutting 85%

Thoughts?

[WDH]

Red maple lumber is selling for a little bit more than hard maple per the last hardwood Market Report.  Top grade soft maple at $1840 per MBF and hard maple at $1700 in the Appalachain Area. 

[TKehl]

What action do you plan to take with the openings?  Nature abhors a vacuum.  Have a plan for how to fill the openings or how to handle them or nature will fill them with bushes and brambles and start succession over again.  Unless you take an active role, it will probably end up looking a lot like what you have now. 

I have similar areas on our farm, though the species are different.  We are making some large openings in some instances taking out American Elm, Cedar, and Honey Locust first, then poor specimens and any low value tree competing with a higher value tree.  We are controlling regrowth mostly with goats.  Otherwise it would be multiflora rose and blackberry bushes in no time flat!

WDH brings up a good point.  If the stem is big enough, it may make as much sense to let it grow to harvest. 

Also, last years trash can be this years treasure.  There are cycles of preference for certain species.  Granted, the cycles are often decades, but so is the growth cycle.  Some diversification can be helpful in the long run. 

[mike_belben]

Thanks guys.

The problem i see with soft maple here is that tree is rarely ever good quality.  Theyre brittle and prone to snapping off in our frequent gnarly storms, or having trunks that twist up like a drill when theyve finally got some diameter.  I dont have but one or two saleable maples on 5 acres and theyd be 2common at best.  I have price sheets from 6 mills.  The highest one for red maple is $600/mbf at prime A with no veneer grade.  Hard maple veneer brings $1200/mbf but i have none.  I can get $1700/mbf for white oak stave.  Only way i could do better is in black walnut which i dont seem to grow.

I have saved a few older ratty red maples to try sugaring, and a few of the nicest straightest juveniles but culled most to let the white oak sprouts catch back up.

Since i am in whiskey country and only two trees can make a barrel, i see no reason to ever think white oak stave will fall out of favor and intend to promote it.  Im going to let all the other species spring back to keep density high in order for the shade intolerant stems to grow straight up. i will TSI as often as needed to keep them from dominating the oaks.  Even junky oak makes fair money in tie logs.  Hickory does very well here and i can get $650/mbf at the handle mill if its 3 sides clear but if its rough a tie only pays $270 vs $360-440/mbf for red and white oak depending on if its standard or switch tie.  I keep hickories just for deer feed so they might eat a few less oak acorns.  My best money is surely in oak even on avg trees.  Culling oak pays better too, no one wants soft maple or sourwood in their firewood.

Havent really had much trouble with invasives.

[sandsawmill14]

the only problem is your grandkids are the earliest generation that MIGHT could sell stave logs that you are starting now and it could be great great grands before the first stave/ veneer cutting  :-\ white oak grows real slow or if it grows real fast it wont make staves ;)
the only problem with hardwood is you either have it or you dont :-\  it takes a lifetime to grow if you plant it thin it will grow faster but be real knotty and if you leave it thick it will be tall smooth #1 timber  that is 14"-16" at 50 years old and maybe 20"22" at a 100 years old   at least thats about how ours grows and yours may be a little slower than that in those hills

[Ianab]

Sometimes "clear cutting" is a valid management option. And trying to reestablish shade intolerant species in an existing poor quality forest is one of those.  This doesn't have to mean "level the whole place", but cutting decent size clearings to allow your more desirable trees to establish is probably more the way to go. The remaining trees will help give shelter to the new trees, which encourage them to grow with a better "form" (taller and straighter) with smaller lower branches that are lost sooner. Your kids can take out the "leave" stands sometime in the future, and replant those areas.

Like mentioned, it's going to be a LONG term project, 70 years might be about the expected rotation for White Oak? But it wont happen in that time at all unless you do "something" to encourage it. But if you did get it established you can set up an operation that provides a harvest every decade or so, for your grandchildren.

Could be worse. I'd like to grow some Rimu. But it's about 400 years to maturity for that.... Hard to make a commercial case for that.  :-\

[sandsawmill14]

mike dont think i am discouraging you from doing what you plan because if we dont take care of the timberlands our grandkids wont have anything but pine, poplar and gum to work with ;) it is just a long term project that one lifetime wont complete is the point i was trying to make but one that is certainly worth starting 

[mike_belben]

These trees are the messenger in my absense to the generations i will never meet that i love them and worked hard for their benefit.

I can turn my 5acres into vastly more money by making it a tsi demo forest to sell the service to other timberlot owners, than i ever could growing it.   Its just a model stand.

[TKehl]

Amen to that brother!

My grandpa planted a ton of black walnut in his younger years.  It's an incredible gift that didn't cost him much more than time.

The stand is now self regenerating, but does need some attention.  No one wants to cut any due to legacy, but we pick walnuts and I mill any that die.  And if it comes down to it, I'd rather do a harvest than split the land as it moves to the 5th generation.

[mike_belben]

Boy thats the kinda news i want to see on my television screen if i were to ever turn it on.

Is TSI expense tax deductible for timberland owners? Id hope so.

[enigmaT120]

Boy thats the kinda news i want to see on my television screen if i were to ever turn it on.

Is TSI expense tax deductible for timberland owners? Id hope so.

That can be complicated, but if you operate your forest as a business and actively participate (whatever that means) in the management, then the answer is yes. 

See Timbertax.org

[Ron Wenrich]

I've always been an advocate of not managing for the marketplace, but manage for the site.  The reason is that you have no way of predicting the marketplace by the time you reach your end point.  There is no use managing for walnut, for example,  if it won't grow well on your site.  Get a soils map and find what grows the best on that site, and manage for that.   I would also look at some other aspects of forestry such as non-timber forest products.  Ginseng and mushrooms comes to mind.

[JBlain]

Oaks and the rest most of your quality species for that region will like the larger openings.  Do you have natural seed sources?  Blackberry is excellent for regeneration of oaks and other hardwoods.  In PA, it keeps deer off the saplings and red oak actually likes some protection when young to build their root mass.  Other competing vegetation like invasive vines and forbs will have to be controlled.  I will do openings and then come back in 10 or so years and precommercial thin the junk and leave the desireable regeneration.  All my work on our property is geared towards 2-3 generations out.  Tennessee is a great spot as well for high quality hardwoods.  I am working with a few landowners with larger tracts in Middle Tennessee and on the Plateau.

Manage for quality based on the site across all species and size classes would be my suggestion.  The way I look at that is it diversifies your forest to make it the most productive and resilient.

Josh

[Clark]

Boy thats the kinda news i want to see on my television screen if i were to ever turn it on.

Is TSI expense tax deductible for timberland owners? Id hope so.

For most landowners, who do not use their land as part of their business and see income from it every year or two, the answer is no...most of the time. If you have a timber harvest one year and do TSI, planting, etc. that same year then you can deduct it from the harvest income. For most landowners you can't deduct expenses to experience a loss on your taxes. Once you do that you will raise some eyebrows.

Clark

[mike_belben]

Thanks for the considerations guys.  Easiest way to keep deer from eating your acorns and seedlings is to eat them first! Blackberry and mint grow wild here in the clearings, brings the bucks in, added bonus.  All my treestands are setup around my heavy cuts.

Josh, i live on the plateau so you know the region. Im close to exit 311on i-40. The biggest issue ive experienced is perfectly sound looking trees with huge stovepipes thru the center.  It really hurts you in the pocket if youve been counting those bd ft in your head.

I thin based on selecting best crop trees for seeding the area.  Havent ever bought seeds.  I suspect walnut could do great here if it didnt pay so well.  Seems its all been over harvested already off my entire "neighborhood."   This patch was a big timber tract subdivided into residential 5 to 13 acre lots and then overtaken by rubbish left behind after high grading.   

The plateau is home to so much timber business.. you cant buy a lot that a big outfit didnt own at one time.  No one ever lets a piece of land go without a last cut.   But they always leave crummy stuff standing so the residential buyer who cant tell a scarlet oak from a red thinks hes got "timber" when hes really got firewood and vines.  You learn after you buy that scarlets are hollow.  Lot of hickory are too in my experience.  I think a lot of it is due to a severe ice storm we caught about 5 yrs back.  All the snapped off branches became water and insect entrances.  Theres hardly a tree here didnt lose a few limbs.

The more i learn about worst practices the better i get at applying best practices to correct the common situation here.  There are far more people wrecking forests than restoring them so on the brightside its an endless supply of work if you can make it pay.