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Anyone running the Woodmizer LX450 yet?

Started by Stuart Caruk, May 20, 2017, 08:11:33 PM

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Stuart Caruk

I decided to upgrade and put my LT35 up for sale. I had several offers in the first day, and let it go after training the new owner. My LX450 is supposed to show up first part of July. So far it looks like I can get the debarker option added onto this mill, and if I'm willing to wait a month and a half I can probably get the diesel engine. I'm trying to decide if a diesel is worth the $4k upgrade cost for the same HP. I can buy a lot of gas for them $$$.

An extension package won't be available until next year, so I'm going to build my own. Somewhere I saw a jig for drilling the center of the hardened rails to make the rail transition seamless. Any ideas where I can get one?

Any other options on this mill or mods that you would make if you're running it currently?

Thanks,

Stu
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

WV Sawmiller

   I watched it demo-ed at the Albermarle NC Owner's Day 2 weeks ago. It was impressive but my goal is mobile sawing and I think there are existing mills out there better suited for that purpose.

    I liked the side clamps that raise straight up and down but I gather we have other mills with that feature. I have an extra set of side arms and they are very helpful for short logs and such.

    I see from your profile you indicate stationary sawing so many of the concerns I had should not be an issue for you. I'm betting you will love it once you get your routine down pat. Let us know more after you've run it a while.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

thechknhwk


scully

With a diesel that mill would be a real ANIMAL!
I bleed orange  .

Stuart Caruk

So having never run a diesel sawmill, what's the difference between it and gas. I thought HP was HP and if the HP is the same the performance should be as well... Of course diesels typically have more torque, but I don't know if that applies in a sawmill application.

Looks like the diesel upgrade is about $4k. That buys a lot of gas. On the other hand I have a 600 gallon bulk diesel tank that can probably reach over to fill my mill up...

I'd love to hear experiences from those that have run the same mill with gas vs. diesel engines. My buddies are trying to steer me to gas saying I can buy and extra couple spare engines for the same $$$.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

thechknhwk

HP is HP, but diesel is torque.

My mill has the v1505 33hp kubota diesel.

http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/13_v1505_30.pdf

That kubota literature shows it rated at 92 nm, which is like 68 ft/lbs of torque.  A gas motor is lucky to have the same torque as it's hp rating.

Ianab

Torque in a way describes how an engine responds to being loaded up.

With a gas engine, if you start to loose RPM, the torque also drops off, making the slow down even worse. Even less torque available, and you really have to ease up on the feed to regain revs. Different engines have different torque curves of course, but torque on a gas engine generally peaks higher than a diesel. Heck my old Toyota had peak torque at 6400 revs. Having that sitting at 3,000 revs driving a sawmill would have been useless  :D   

Where as you look at the torque curve of the little diesel that thechknhwk posted. If that's sitting at 3,000 revs (max power) and you load it up, the torque is actually higher at 2800, so it's not going to bog down the same.

So a diesel tends to maintain torque at lower revs, and resists that slow down effect, and can power through the knot etc easier than a gas engine, and with only a slight slow down.

Electric is even better in that respect as torque actually goes UP as the revs drop. This is why you can run a mill with maybe 60% less HP if it's electric.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

tawilson

I ordered my LT40 with the 35hp gas engine mainly cause I was about 3 times my original budget and had to stop somewhere. But in researching I tried to find the difference in weight between the gas and diesel. Woodmizer doesn't list it and the best I could come up with is probably around 200 lbs. Maybe the cooling system adds more. I wonder if the lighter gas setup is less wear on the lift mechanism.  I saw a YouTube video of a saw head breaking something when raising and it came down hard.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

thecfarm

You also get away from carbs problems with diesel.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Magicman

Quote from: Stuart Caruk on May 22, 2017, 01:34:29 AM...buddies are trying to steer me to gas saying I can buy and extra couple spare engines for the same $$$.
All of the gas and spare engines in the world will not equal the benefits of the Diesel. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

grouch

Quote from: Stuart Caruk on May 22, 2017, 01:34:29 AM
I'd love to hear experiences from those that have run the same mill with gas vs. diesel engines. My buddies are trying to steer me to gas saying I can buy and extra couple spare engines for the same $$$.

I don't have any experience running a sawmill with a diesel engine, but you've already gotten advice from those who have.

No offense, but that's about the nuttiest reason to recommend a gasoline engine as I've ever heard. The time spent swapping those spare engines would pay for the diesel engine.

Diesels have fewer parts. If it ain't there, it can't break. Flatter torque curve has already been covered.

Diesels inherently burn dirtier than gasoline engines, but what comes out the exhaust is not the only thing you have to measure when considering impact on your world. (I remember the big uproar during the gasoline "crisis" of the '70s there were people screaming for NASCAR to suspend racing. That lasted until it was calculated that Monday Night Football actually cost more barrels of oil than Sunday races).

Quote from: Ianab on May 22, 2017, 03:51:08 AM
[...]

Electric is even better in that respect as torque actually goes UP as the revs drop. This is why you can run a mill with maybe 60% less HP if it's electric.

And that's how all those marketers come up with ridiculous  "Peak HP!" claims on air compressors, etc. An electric motor produces maximum torque at stall -- and then the magic smoke gets loose.
Find something to do that interests you.

nativewolf

If you were going to be stationary an electric would be super.  Are they offering it?  Lots of folks on here have converted stationary mills from gas/diesel to electric and none complain that I've heard. 
Liking Walnut

Chuck White

Quote from: grouch on May 22, 2017, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: Stuart Caruk on May 22, 2017, 01:34:29 AM
I'd love to hear experiences from those that have run the same mill with gas vs. diesel engines. My buddies are trying to steer me to gas saying I can buy and extra couple spare engines for the same $$$.

I don't have any experience running a sawmill with a diesel engine, but you've already gotten advice from those who have.

No offense, but that's about the nuttiest reason to recommend a gasoline engine as I've ever heard. The time spent swapping those spare engines would pay for the diesel engine.

Diesels have fewer parts. If it ain't there, it can't break. Flatter torque curve has already been covered.

Diesels inherently burn dirtier than gasoline engines, but what comes out the exhaust is not the only thing you have to measure when considering impact on your world. (I remember the big uproar during the gasoline "crisis" of the '70s there were people screaming for NASCAR to suspend racing. That lasted until it was calculated that Monday Night Football actually cost more barrels of oil than Sunday races).

Quote from: Ianab on May 22, 2017, 03:51:08 AM
[...]

Electric is even better in that respect as torque actually goes UP as the revs drop. This is why you can run a mill with maybe 60% less HP if it's electric.

And that's how all those marketers come up with ridiculous  "Peak HP!" claims on air compressors, etc. An electric motor produces maximum torque at stall -- and then the magic smoke gets loose.

I don't think so, my brother and I removed the Onan engine from my mill and installed the new Kohler engine two years ago and it took us right at two hours from start to finish and I was back at the saw site and sawing within 3 hours!

Just sayin'!   ;)
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

grouch

Quote from: Chuck White on May 22, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
[...]
I don't think so, my brother and I removed the Onan engine from my mill and installed the new Kohler engine two years ago and it took us right at two hours from start to finish and I was back at the saw site and sawing within 3 hours!

Just sayin'!   ;)

Now, times 2 ("couple spare engines") and you are 6 hours behind on sawing, at least. If Murphy has his way, those breakdowns will be when you are covered up with work. That means you stay behind until customers go elsewhere or something else breaks.

The bigger the machine and the more production needed from it, the better the argument for diesel over gasoline.
Find something to do that interests you.

longtime lurker

I dont have any thin bandmill experience to know where the point of "wasted power" is because you have more power then the saw can absorb...but heres one thing I can tell you as fact in this industry regardless of what type of mill you operate or where you are in the world:

A board isnt worth more because it took you longer to cut it.

So aside from the increased engine longevity and cheaper operating cost over thousands of hours that go with diesel... if it makes a mill cut faster it makes more money.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Randy88

Diesel would be my vote and not look back.   

Here's an idea, how much more in a percentage is the 4k diesel on the entire cost of the mill?  Just tossing out figures here, for simple math, say the mill is 36k with a gas engine and 40k for the mill with diesel engine, that's roughly 10 percent more in price on total cost, next question is this, how much more fuel per hour alone will the gas suck, if the answer is anything over 10 percent the better deal is the diesel, not even considering replacement costs for the gas engine, or any maintenance costs, life expectancy or anything else, including downtime.   



thechknhwk

I had the 25hp kohler on an LT35, you had to fill it up at lunch time, and it cut slower.  On the kubota diesel you can saw all day and it makes more lumber.

Peter Drouin

I have watched that mill cut, Is all I have to say.


  

  

  

 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Chuck White

Quote from: thechknhwk on May 22, 2017, 11:04:21 PM
I had the 25hp kohler on an LT35, you had to fill it up at lunch time, and it cut slower.  On the kubota diesel you can saw all day and it makes more lumber.

Well... The 25hp Kohler on my mill will run all day "easy" on one tank of gas!

Two days ago my grandson and I sawed 1,828 bd ft of White Pine on 4 gallons of 91 octane!

Everything on that sawjob was cut at one (1) inch 4/4, except for one 5" slab for a bar top!

Now I'm not saying that a diesel wouldn't be nice, but what I am saying is that I couldn't justify adding one to my mill!

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

4x4American

Torque is the ability to do work, hp is how fast said work gets done.  A 30 hp gas vs diesel vs electric gonna all cut slower than the next one. 
Boy, back in my day..

ladylake


  Going from a 27hp Kohler  to a 29HP Isuzu , the Isuzu uses 1/2 the fuel and cuts way faster in tough wood. I think payback in fuel savings will be somewhere around 3000 hours.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Randy88

We figure if your only going to keep whatever piece of equipment far less than 1000 hours, we might consider gas, anything over that and we want diesel right from the git go.     

3000 hours might be break even on fuel alone, but its doubtful at best the gas engine will last that long so in essence you need to figure in a replacement engine long before the 3000 hour mark, meaning break even is much closer to 1500 hours or less.   

If you put a side load on a Kohler gas, you shorten its life expectancy greatly, the crank bearings are smaller and lighter on a Kohler than Briggs or Honda engines.     If you take two identical Kohler engines and put one with a side load, as in belt drive bandsaw, edger, mower or many other applications and the other engine you use it in a straight line pull such as a direct drive water pump or hydraulic pump, the engine with a side load will last a portion of the hours as the in line direct drive engine will, just due to how much side pull is on the crank shaft and crank bearings.     Many small engine dealers will tell you this if your wanting to buy a replacement engine for a Kohler that has locked up and try to sell a Briggs or Honda for its replacement.       

SlowJoeCrow


Jim_Rogers

I recently viewed one of these mills and I did notice that the bed rails have holes in the end for adding on extensions. So that are pre-bored alreary for bed extensions. I would imagine that when the bed extensions are ready that they will "bolt right up"......

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim H

To decide on gas vs diesel you have to consider your situation. If you are paid by production the extra torque of the diesel probably makes sense. I chose the gas engine because my work is hourly. The gas engine has lower initial cost, and in most cases on a mobile site the gas engine keeps up pretty well. I've cut for customers that had previously hired diesel mills, and according to them they couldn't see a difference in speed. Another thing to keep in mind is that these mills are an easy application for the engines. My current mill has over 5200 hours and I've replaced the spark plugs twice, and put on a new fuel pump solenoid. Some years ago Arkansawyer on this forum reported having to change his Kohler at around 10,000 hours. The fuel injected engines are more efficient also, I get about 8 hours on 5gal compared to 7-8gal on my previous carbureted mill. I have run a diesel mill, and while the torque was pretty nice ;D, when I looked what was best for my business the gas engine was a better choice.
2008 LT40HDG28, autoclutch, debarker, stihl 026, 046, ms460 bow, 066, JD 2350 4wd w/245 loader, sawing since '94 fulltime since '98

MbfVA

Diesels are expensive to buy, for sure, and not just any mechanic can work on them.  At the Ford dealership locally, one man does all diesels, and there was a crisis a couple of years ago when the one guy quit.

Automotively, diesel is good for trailer pulling, but noisy and yuk for acceleration (My gas Chevy 2500 with the 300 HP V-8 will way out run the Ford 350/diesel we have, unless pulling a trailer).

I go with my old science teacher:
Amps v Volts ~ Power v Speed
Torque v HP ~ Power v Speed
There's a pair for internet capacity v speed, too, but part of it eludes me at the moment and its getting late to go surfing for it. 🏄🏼🏄🏼

My recollection of the typical auto gas engine torque curve was a max at much lower RPM than for HP, and usually flatter.  Even flatter in a diesel.  The 6400 RPM torque peak for a gas car power plant in an prior post was odd.  That RPM would be more tied to peak HP, I would think.

Cost of road diesel is high right now compared to regular gas, and with off road hard to find, I usually fall back on using it in my smaller Diesel engines.  Tank on the Chevy has broken fuel pump.  Got to fix before I start using my bigger stuff (and ordinary hay round here is a loss, way too much due to rain rain rain).

Kohler gets Turner's (NY sawmill maker) vote since he has soured on Honda due to warranty issues with ethanol gas.  He likes the EFI.

Just a few newbie thoughts, from a certified newbie.  BTW, Jim H is modest--he is on his 3rd WM mill and I think into something like his 4th MM board foot level.  He was kind enough to demo his LT40 for me, nice cedar boards cut we did.  We have a couple of cedars, too, to put it mildly and I want to do our new house siding in it.

Gotta get a mill first!  Too many choices out there.  Swing blade vs band, ad infinitm....
www.ordinary.com (really)

Kbeitz

The fastest acceleration pickup that I ever drove was a diesel.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

4x4American

Yea there's plenty of diesels out there that are real fast...just depends what shes got under the hood.  I know the 7.3 powder joke at my old work is slower than molasses in January.  Their 6.0 F550 actually boogies pretty good (they have some work done to it) but it will pass everything but a shop
Boy, back in my day..

thechknhwk

Road diesel is the same as gas here, and my Duramax runs way better than my 6.0 gasser did.

nativewolf

I think that working solo a gas engine would work as fast as I want to.  I'd like electric because I don't want to do engine maint. 
Liking Walnut

tawilson

I am happy I don't have to lay awake on those cold winter nights wondering if my fuel is gelling up.  Lol.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

Dave Shepard

I'm glad i don't have to lay awake at night worrying about my gas engine blowing up from ethanol related issues. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

dgdrls

Diesel fuel has more energy per unit volume than gas,
once you operate diesel equipment, its tough to go back to gas, diesels just make hard work easier.
Quality diesels are built to last well past the average service life of a
gas motor,

IMO Diesel is worth the extra expense in a portable mill
or any other place you need a power plant to get work done.

D

4x4American

I'm glad I don't lay awake at night lol
Boy, back in my day..

grouch

Y'all rest easy now. I lay awake worryin' about all you folks being glad about not laying awake at night.
Find something to do that interests you.

Randy88

If you guys would buy diesel's, you'd sleep good year round like I do.   
   

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