Tree saw for skid steer loader, DFM or?

[MbfVA]

Does anyone have any experience with SSL based tree cutters like the Dougherty (DFM) tree saw (RS, et al)?

We have 175 acres of woods to use with our soon to be purchased sawmill, a house to build, and my wife doesn't want me out in the woods with a chainsaw more than necessary.

The one from DFM  for our machine is about $15,000, factory direct, so we want to make a good decision.  I like it better than ones based on cutter/crusher jaws, and that very slow cutting machine that reminds me of giant turtle--cannot recall the brand.  It's been around a long time and  reportedly cuts strongly but very very very slowly.   Marshall, maybe?  Edit--it is Marshall.

[OH logger]

ryans in Michigan makes shears, hot saws and dangle heads for skid loaders. jut tryin to throw more turds in the punchbowl  ;D. I have one of their log grapples for my bobcat and its built right. not as cheap as some others but its not as cheap as some others  ;)

[TKehl]

Since the land is on a river, is it the bluff side or mostly flat.  Can only run on ground so steep.

Haven't run a saw, but have a shear on skid steer.  Looking at the DFM, my concern is limited directional felling capabilities.  If it's bigger than 12-15", it can do some serious damage.  Even if it never falls on the skid steer, it will do more damage to the remaining trees due to reduced ability to "AIM".  If clear cutting, then it doesn't matter so much.  Looks real good for TSI though.

I like the Ryan's saw with buncher, but would take a good size skid steer.  They say the attachment itself is 2150 before you hold any trees on it.  Far outclasses our JD 250.

http://www.ryansequip.com/products/saw.html

I often wish we'd bought a saw instead of the shear for speed.  Then I look at the price difference, and since we are working our own land, not for hire, it'd take a LOT of seat time to make up the difference.  We are mostly using it to clear overgrown cedar and doing TSI work.

Have you thought about taking a felling class or finding a mentor?  Unless you plan to do a serious amount of land clearing, it may be a better option and put your wife more at ease.

[MbfVA]

Thanks for the tips.  I do agree on aiming but given the slopes and level of concentration of our trees, taking all into account I think we'll be OK.  Our land does have some topo roll, and we'll still have to chain saw on them.

I was really sobered by the government accident report online of the guy who was killed by a stump coming into his cab on a slope.  He used a shear and cut it off at about 4 ft (not sure why), and then the machine tilted on the hillside and freak as it may seem, the remainder of the tree crushed his chest.  He died from asphyxiation.

I have a chain saw mentor, one of our long time hunters, have worked with him on many trees, so I feel I can do it safely but wife still does not like it.  Knowing limitations is the big deal--Ask for help when I need it, etc.

SSL has FOPS and ROPS.  Bobcat A300, cab & air; it would take a lot to crush it, front door is probably the main point of danger.

Just ordered the Dougherty Forestry Mfg RS 3000 Tree saw.  This is the chosen solution after watching their videos and talking to a happy owner in the Valley.  I like the replaceable teeth (and I ordered extras with the machine, JIK).  500 hrs is the estimated life.

DFM also makes an SSL feller buncher but the wt of it uses up too much of my SSL's 3000 # capacity and the cutting radius is smaller.  It really needs a tracked 120 HP +- machine to be effective.

Looked at Ryan's page.  Nice but same wt problem.  We'd have to upsize to a bigger SSL or a bigger excavator--our 430 Bobcat is way too small, too.

Our Liebherr 621 would handle but I don't see any attachment path.

Now I need a saw mill to process the trees we'll be cutting.

[OH logger]

[/quote]

Now I need a saw mill to process the trees we'll be cutting.

it never ends does it ?   :D

[MbfVA]

Yeah, the trees are crying out for their cut of the action, too.

[mike_belben]

Is your SS on tracks or tires?

[nativewolf]

mbfva,

Wonderful part of VA, are you closer to the headwaters or the James?  Up along the ridge there is..well a whole lot of slope.  We've spent many days hiking along the headwaters, I guess the Roach/lynch branch's.  Our small farm is in Northern Fauquier county, same basic species mix and soils.

I would enjoy the opportunity to see it working if you don't mind a visitor one day this summer. 

[mike_belben]

Id be extremely reluctant to run my rubber tire bobcat  in anything that isnt nearly flat.  Its the most dangerous machine i own by far in even slightly rough terrain, the only one that could buck you out of the seat.   Ive heard the track machines are night and day, especially ASV.

[MbfVA]

Visitors welcome, helpers even more welcome  :D

My SSL is an A300, all wheel steer.  I have extra tail weight & leveling stabilizers in the back (bought for use with the tree spade attachment), but I know what you mean about stability.  My machine is FOPS and ROPS protected and I wear my seatbelt with shoulder harness; will likely add some head gear, to protect me if I fall over and flop around inside, too.  Our land has lots of roll for sure but there are level areas that I feel safe on, too.  Might trade for a track machine...have to plan that one carefully with the wife....

I have developed a fairly good sense of tipping points with my 'cat over the years going up some of the slopes around our restaurant here.  It definitely has its limits, but that is true of all equipment, especially the large and dangerous variety.

Right after we bought the farm in 2004, I was moving some old hay bales with an Alo baler grabber, first experience, and while holding a bale too high, I hit a groundhog hole.  Big bill for that turnover.

I'm sure I can turn the loader over, then it would be my 430 tracked excavator to the rescue!

The A300's main claim to fame is its kindness to turf, with all wheel steering.  I have a set of turf tires on it right now, in addition to the R4 tires that it comes with.

DFM also offers a small scale feller buncher device but it weights over 2000# and my SSL only lifts 3000.  Grab too big a tree and over you go, I am betting.  The RS weighs in at 1100# so it should provide helpful front end weight.

[brianJ]

I guess my main question about a purchase is, "Will your wife still be nervous no matter how you are equiped?"   

[mike_belben]

I am thinking with a buncher on that machine youd have to pick your battles.   On the dicey sized trees youd come in from the correct side, plunge into the cut, set the butt of the buncher on the ground and shove it over.  Chainsaw for bigger stuff.

[MbfVA]

I'm listening.  Ironically, chain sawing scares her the most.  Earl Hamner's nephew was master of the big Boy Scout camp near here, and was the best tree feller I have heard of, but he moved to WV on retirement.  One of our hunters is really good and has been mentoring me.  Coupled with that is my natural sense of caution and heavy research using resources like this forum.

As the voice over on PBS says, "Thank you".

[mike_belben]

Let me ask you a question.  Are you wanting a skidsteer saw to cut you saw timbers or speed up your land clearing and culling activities?

[MbfVA]

Both since we have lots of medium size timber (forest is somewhat stunted due to poor long term management).

At  first we considered a forestry mulcher for clearing, but our 80 hp SSL was clearly not up to most of those, and it would be no help for trees we wanted to process for timber, of course.

[mike_belben]

Im looking at pictures of the saws you mentioned and i dont see how theyd fell a sawlog without destroying it or getting you killed.   Theyre brush clearing saws for taking out high volumes of small diameter growth that doesnt need directional control when falling.   I dont mean to burst your bubble on this but you cant sever the butt of too many sawable trees and live to tell about it unless youre in a machine that can lift the entire tree or atleast force it over to land in a predetermined spot.. Using a feller buncher or other harvesting attachment. Just plunging a circle saw in will result in uncontrolled falling that either wrecks your other trees or gets you on one of those fatality reports.  Nevermind how many buttlogs itll trash.

I am building a timber home on my land similar to you and i can say in all honesty its a huge project.. im hardly making a dent.  I havent sawed a thing.. Just the logging and clearing has consumed me, and ive got a dozer, forkloader, bobcat and pro saws. 

I think youd be wise to get the sawmill set up and find a local farmer who logs in winter (very common here in TN) to come to your place and skid timbers to your mill for you to cut.  Either pay in cash or pay in sawed lumber.  Every farmer always needs another leanto or shed put up and youd be years ahead on your project.

Your local sawmill grader will be the fastest place to get the names of any fella who might be interested in that.

If youre determined to do it yourself i commend you, but id recommend spending that money on a 28" pro chainsaw, a helmet, wedges, a good running dozer with 6 way blade, and a whole lotta youtube videos.  Dozers arent very profitable at logging anymore but they can do almost all the other homesteading/land shaping jobs youll surely need to do, with exceptional precision, much faster than a bobcat.  Your skidsteer with forks will be a dream come true at sorting logs on the landing and loading the mill. 

One caveat.. Dozers stink in rock, ledge and boulder type soil.  If i were homesteading in NH i would use an excavator with hydraulic thumb and make a forwarding trailer to get the logs out.   

[MbfVA]

Thanks for the notes.  Fortunately our site is already cleared, and we have a Liebherr track loader for any heavy stuff; but I'm trying avoid the kind of wide open log deck/platform that you have, frankly.  That RS saw has a lot of flexibility on the head, and maybe it should scare me more but with our trees which aren't on average as large as many I saw in your gallery, I think we'll do better than you're predicting but I do have some backup on chain sawing, too, a friend who helped me clear a road.

If I don't wind up using it for enough wood to TF the house (and we won't waste time on things more cost effectively store bought), at least the RS will help me clear some trails in our woods, cut our fence line cedars (my wife refers to them as Bird S__ Cedars), etc.  Siding, closet material, you name it; we have LOTS of medium white & red oaks.  The RS will rise up and limb trees to its height limit, too.

I know you wish me luck and I do take in everything I am told, and indulge in behavior modification often!

BTW, chain sawing question: on your first 2 photos, showing the barber chair type thing, I could not 'see' a directional notch on the far side of the tree--did I miss something, was there one?  I've gotten a Barber chair when I put my cuts too far apart vertically, but no directional from what I have heard results in a sure fire place to get your hairs trimmed or other angry tree things.

That is quite a crew you have there, but please get 'em a ROPS for even that little vehicle he was driving so he & she will know the value at a young age.  A friend near here was disabled for life from a no ROPS accident a few years ago, when his tractor tossed him off (he was correctly not wearing a seat belt since no ROPS, and likely would have been crushed if belted).  Both our Bobcats and our Liebherr have FOPS and ROPS, tractors all ROPS (and some measure of FOPS but not OSHA std) and cabs.  Polaris has a nice ROPS cage.

Got my VA DL in 1967 and have never accepted a ride or car to drive without belts since.

For all my safety attention & concerns I still managed to become distracted a few years ago and slash my thigh, not with a chain saw but with *DanG Stihl hedge clippers.  All it takes is a moment.  No serious damages but I still have the scar--the dirt it ground in made it long lasting.

[Ianab]

BTW, chain sawing question: on your first 2 photos, showing the barber chair type thing, I could not 'see' a directional notch on the far side of the tree--did I miss something, was there one?  I've gotten a Barber chair when I put my cuts too far apart vertically, but no directional from what I have heard results in a sure fire place to get your hairs trimmed or other angry tree things.

From memory Mike's first posts were about how to solve that barberchair problem. He got some good advice about setting up the notch and hinge wood and has fixed the issue. The directional notches are there, just they didn't have enough angle, and closed up part way though the tree falling, and that was the result.  A shallow angle notch is enough to let the tree build up some momentum, then the notch closes and tries to stop the tree's fall.

Depending on "various things"...
The hinge may snap off and the tree still falls in the right general direction
OK
The tree may stop and you have to cut some more off the hinge.
OR
It barberchairs like those pics.

[mike_belben]

The thing to know is that a tree is like a bundle of straws and every straw carries some load.  Depending on wind the load will switch back and forth between tension and compression on each straw to keep the tree upright.  Some species the fibers bond to each other really well like red oak. In others like walnut hickory and white oak they delaminate from each other easily. 


Every tree that you notch and fall has a contest occuring inside as it goes over.  The contest is between the hold capacity of the hingewood vs the desire of the trunk to stay straight instead of bend. This concentrates a force in the buttlog right where the severed tension fibers end and remaining hinge fibers begin.  They delaminate from each other, splitting the trunk into a barberchair that can knock you into the next life. 

The more hingewood you leave to control the fall (prevent rotation and swinging off course) the more wood is trying to keep the trunk upright while the top is taking the trunk down. The more direction control you get at the expense of more barberchair risk.  So the name of the game is minimize the hinge wood to have just enough control for a safe landing.  That takes experience to know how much, and eyes in the kerf to verify its going right.

In sawing difficult species for sale to the mill, being able to sell your buttlog as it falls is critical to making money.  Thats where the advanced sawing techniques come in.  Nipping sapwood around the hinge, gutting hearts out, borecuts and holding straps to trigger a fall etc. 


If the tree starts going over before you have whittled down all the critical areas of compression wood in the hinge, then barberchair is likely especially in stringy species and worse so during high sap when the fibers are all lubed up and soft.  This extra elasticity allows the hinge fibers to stretch and hang on longer, thus more frequently winning the battle and producing barber chair. 

So my concern here is how many near death felling mistakes i have made A) having a pretty good idea of the physics and B) with my face right up in there..  Now my multiplying how much more often i would do this running a hot saw from 5 feet further back.   And i only mention this on sawlog stuff.  Cull trees absolutely id buzz them right down.  But i asked about you wanting to fell sawtimbers with it specifically and you said yes, so thats where i worry about your safety.   I cant sell any timber below 10" diameter small end..  a cull tree that makes a single tie log is still 40-60 feet tall.  I envision 3 scenarios for felling millable trees.   Barber chairs, unhinged uncontrolled freefalling trees and once in a while, one going right.   Without a buncher style holding arm or atleast a pusher up on the trunk of some sort i see absolutely no way to influence the fall.  Its just a machine for turnin em loose.  Thats like asking a tornado to produce sawlogs.  I know i would have a very difficult time making saleable buttlogs armed with a partner circular saw.  I dont think putting it on an extension on a machine would change things.

Now for small stem culling and brush or low branches i think its great as long as you dont mind small tops landing on your cab occasionally. 

Look at a hydroax style feller buncher or a forestry mulcher. Youll notice they all have a means to push the stem hard away from themselves and create directional lean before/during the cut.  I believe that is critical if youll be falling anything that can hurt you or other value on the property.  It wont replace your chainsaw for fallings (maybe for bucking) just know that upfront.  By all means tell your wife it will, but have no illusions of your own. 

IMHO.. I have not used one and could easily be proven wrong.  Im posting to help you stay safe, not at all to put you down.  I travel 81 pretty regularly.  Id be happy to show you what i know if you want some saw pointers.  How far from staunton are you?

[MbfVA]

 I don't feel put down at all, I appreciate what you're saying Mike.   Did you watch the video of the RS saw?   The same company makes forestry mulchers and a small fellerbuncher as well.  There is a pusher like you describe, and I had in mind to toss a grapple into trouble some trees and block and tackle them a mild amount to keep them from falling in the wrong direction, knowing that pulling too hard on them may produce an instant barber chair.  I'm pretty careful, and I'm aware of the  potential energy aspect of the physics of trees, tho I can't claim to understand it all.   I will certainly start with the small trees to observe how the thing works with them.

Our farm is about an hour from Staunton; we are 12 miles south of I 64 on US 15.  Love to show you and some of the other guys who have asked me around, and gain some benefit from your experience.  With 4000 feet on the Rivanna River and a nice elevated building spot across that river from the guy who invented the Bloomberg Black Box, it's an interesting place. His house cost an estimated $6 million, ours will be a bit less expensive.  Ms Julanne Griffin lives about 2 miles down the river.  You would have to be into the game show Jeopardy to know who she is. Hint, her ex-husband's name was Merv.  Fun neighborhood, but I have not met either of those two people in person.  Notice that I omitted referencing the less than famous people like myself.

[mike_belben]

LoL.  My neighborhood is full of interesting people too, by way of meth, theft and prostitution.  White oak isnt the only gem out here!

If you start small with your chainsaw and watch the mechanics of it.. Especially if you set up a few intentional booboos on little trees.. There is a ton you can learn.   Ill PM you if i have some extra time on my next run. 

Can you link me the vid you mentioned? I might have been looking at images of the wrong saw model.

[MbfVA]

Try this one and focus on the RS videos.  Ours is the RS-3000 but they use the larger 3400 in the videos.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=turbo+saw+RS+3000&&view=detail&mid=DAFD84D81F579646E7C0DAFD84D81F579646E7C0&&FORM=VDRVRV

My bobcat has pretty good reach so I'll be doing some limbing for sure.

Mostly they show the RS doing smaller stuff, but note the bigger trees, too, which the operator appears to usually hit from the side.  In one video he cut through and immediately backed up as it fell.  Lots of learning to do for sure.

[nativewolf]

Interesting.  I could see that being useful for clearing cedar and for clearing fencerows.  Neat that you could cut the slash up with by rotating the boom.   I think I'd be scared to cut anything sizable with it, I don't see how you'd maintain leverage.

[MbfVA]

Do you mean leverage to make it fall?

[nativewolf]

yep, I think that is what Mike was picking up on.  I'd feel better if it had a hydraulic controlled top bar that could go up about 6 feet above the blade and push.  Hey you'll figure out what makes you comfortable and I know you are safety conscious based on how you describe the need for ROPS, etc. 

I am sure you'd find a market for services with the saw head but it looks like the perfect fence row cutter but I don't see how you control the felling angle with it.  Am I making sense?  My wife says that I often don't :D. 

Maybe other more savvy loggers would chime it. 

My forest mulcher had that sort of top link control and the big difference between my tiller and mulcher (both fae) is that the tiller has none so no chewing on tall trees.  Good for brush but that's it.