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Author Topic: Hickory Timbers?  (Read 1594 times)

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Offline Don P

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Hickory Timbers?
« on: May 15, 2017, 08:08:46 pm »
I'm working on a 2 crib log barn restoration that has grown considerably in scope. We've been slabbing 2 faces on logs and leaving the top and bottom live edged. We are making them 9" thick which is the average thickness of the hewn originals. The bottom 4 courses are white oak, all being replaced. From there up for the next 12 courses we have been sawing poplar logs but I'm hitting the woods pretty hard and I'm seeing lots of nice shagbark and mockernut trees in the right size range. I know this is not traditional but I think that was because of the difficulty in working in hickory. This is all being done with power tools so that is not an issue. I don't believe the durability is any different than poplar, heaven knows poplar in a slab sided timber is going to open a good check. I think the powderpost beetles will be less interested in the hickory. We'll be heading back in to the "store" tomorrow. Has anyone used hickory timbers or have comments?

Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 09:19:43 pm »
I believe that the PPB's actually prefer the ring porous hardwoods like hickory.  I know that they love pecan. 
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Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 10:13:16 pm »
Hmm, makes sense, there's one to factor in when we talk about it in the morning. We are borating but I'm not sure I want to put in a preferred species, I sort of feel like we're bringing in fresh food to an existing ongoing feast already.

Offline ellmoe

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 07:14:04 am »
   In Fla, hickory is a PPB magnet. I wouldn't try it here.
Mark, Wildlife Biologist (in my previous life), now 2 HD40E25's, Weining Promat, Koetter Kilns (2), Sore back and arthritic fingers!

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 07:23:51 am »
I have some poplar in Northern VA.  You could cut several good beams but not til after june 17.  Not sure where you are located?

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 10:45:51 pm »
We're down in southwestern VA, I actually have about 2,000 acres to wander on so I'm certainly not depleting them that hard. Using the hickory was feeling like a win/win by using a lower value species and leaving more poplar but we nixed it this morning, I'll just go deeper into the mountains looking.
The timberframers did ask for a couple of 60' 10x12 plates if we can find them. We're doing a bunch of 30' stock but that will be interesting... to move as well!


Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 07:11:20 am »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 07:25:47 am »
We're down in southwestern VA, I actually have about 2,000 acres to wander on so I'm certainly not depleting them that hard. Using the hickory was feeling like a win/win by using a lower value species and leaving more poplar but we nixed it this morning, I'll just go deeper into the mountains looking.
The timberframers did ask for a couple of 60' 10x12 plates if we can find them. We're doing a bunch of 30' stock but that will be interesting... to move as well!

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

 2000 acres is about my goal, SW is pretty.  My folks retired to Emory.   Can't believe you have issues finding good poplar, I think I'd enjoy that forest.  Most of the places I look at these days have too much Poplar and not enough mast species. 

Hickory makes great flooring, guess you can save it for that.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 07:26:11 am »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.

Ochh

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 07:28:16 am »
Don- just seeing the 60' on there.  How will you mill it?  If you find that I'd like to see the picture.


Offline Wudman

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 11:27:24 am »
I'd stay away from the hickory unless you are treating it in some manner.  I had hickory cabinets in my last home.  The powder post beetles worked it over pretty good before we found them.  Hickory is not very rot resistant if it get wet repeatedly.

Wudman

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 08:39:37 pm »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.

 It can really ruin your day, or so I've heard  :'(

We'll mill it with the Alaskan mill the same way we are doing the 30' ones. We nail a string from end to end centered, on the side of the log. I have a 16' section of extension ladder.  We start at the butt end and using 2 pieces of plumbers strapping and some metal roof screws we set a level on the ladder and screw it to the log measuring the distance from the top edge of the ladder to the string (this is not the csm setting simply the reference height for the ladder) We shim and screw the ladder down near the ends and at the middle level and the same height above the string. I then measure down from the ladder top edge to the desired cut line and set the mill up to that distance. Since the mill gauges are set up for the throat opening and I'm shooting for the bottom of the bar I deduct 3/8" on the mill guage for this opening cut. We go down to the end of the ladder, unscrew, slide the ladder down and repeat. You could go for as long as you want. The second cut for the opposite face is set up like normal. There is also a torpedo level taped to one of the bars on the mill and we watch it while cutting. Hopefully that made some sense  :).

We are borating but decided not to use the hickory.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 06:27:47 pm »
This is a shot after the first cut on a 30' log. We first centered a string along the side as a reference line then shimmed and leveled a ladder a uniform distance above the string. When we reached the end of the ladder we moved it down and repeated, shimming and leveling the ladder the same distance above the string. You could go pretty much any distance you want that way. These logs are 9" thick so after we finish the first cut we set the chainsaw mill to 9" and ride on the flattened surface, this pic is just prior to that cut.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 10:20:48 pm »
downloaded a few pics of making a 34' 10x12 beam
First we ran a string centered down the side of the log and set up a scaffold plank on the log, moving it down the length once. This set up the first CSM slab and then we did a second pass 12" below


Then we snapped a reference line down the side and set the supports up square to the first cut to hold the walkboard. The supports could be shorter



This is what it looked like at the end of that cut, It came out good and square




Thr 4th cut released a good heavy timber 10x12 X 34'.

It's still in the woods, too wet to move right now. We sawed poplar lumber under my sawshed yesterday and cleared the deck. Heading out to our pile this morning to see if we can grab another trailerload and buy some drying time on the ground.


Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 07:39:41 am »
Hopefully it stays straight and square.  My hickory likes to walk. 
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Offline 1938farmall

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2017, 10:03:27 am »
I moved a 53' ridge log for my shed by picking up one end of the log & rolling a small utility trailer under, then strapped the tongue to the log & picked up the other end with the 3pt.  just need room to make wide turns.
aka oldnorskie

Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2017, 10:52:58 am »
Thanks for pic of your beam creation.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 06:05:55 pm »
I don't know what it is a hickory but green it certainly draws the carpenter ants .Something is killing off the hickory around here .Not exactly sure what it is .

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 07:04:43 pm »
Whoops sorry for the confusion, I just kept talking about making the beams on this thread. We did nix the hickory, this one was a scarlet oak. No particular reason other than it was big enough, stronger than spec and got debarked during logging. The framers wanted poplar and we dropped one today that stands a good chance of making a 60'er which would work as a one piece top plate across the entire 2 crib barn, we'll know more as we work it up. Between the log cribs and side sheds there are 5 roof beams that length total although the bearing points/ potential splice points vary

We have talked about putting one end of this beam in the back of a truck and I'll pick up the other end with the loader and taking it out that way. We also have about 200' of cable on the winch on the loader and it is about that far out to the pasture in one direction so I could drag it out that way, but it'll get dirty if I do that.

Going back to hickory, the woods here are full of it and red maple and as I look at the next forest coming up that looks like what it'll be. I'm also in a conversation with some folks about affordable, nice, accessible small housing for older folks. I'm not opposed to exploring the use of those species in a frame.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 07:49:45 pm »
We've gotten the 60' poplar sawn on 3 sides and out to the road today. Al will bring the skytrack over there in the morning and well pick it up, turn it 90 and set it centered on my trailer. I think it is strong enough at this size to make the trip like that. If it were weaker for that long length we had thought of bowstringing it or building a truss with this piece as the bottom chord.

This is a pic of the second scaffold move on the third side, that is a 24' scaffold plank so it took 3 moves to go the distance. That is poplar bark on the bottom foreground. We harvested three ~5x9' pieces from the lower end.

each piece is worth... $300


Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 09:01:12 pm »
The bark is worth that?

I am surprise the wood did not move with you.  Is that because of the scaffolding?

Offline Magicman

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 10:13:02 pm »
That will be a beauty.  Heck, it already is.   8)
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2017, 10:26:43 pm »
Is that bark for siding?  Seems that the bark is a nice bit of gravy. 

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 10:34:23 pm »
It is something else, never tried anything like this before. "sure why not" gets me into more trouble  :D

We were just playing since the bark was slipping and it is easier to saw nekkid. The retail is $6-10 per sq ft with big sheets bringing the premium, I think at that size it is interior wall covering and the 18-24" long pieces are for siding. I don't know the wholesale buyers but I do see the occasional truck or trailer leaving here loaded. I think heading down to the Boone area.

The scaffold is just resting up there so provides no support. The learning curve has definitely been there on this. Across an old entrenched roadbed is not the best bearing for this thing. When we made the first cut we did put a couple of jacks under it. The second cut rides parallel to the first surface so those two were good cuts. While it was laying down with the flattened faces up and down I snapped a line for that third cut. We then rolled it upright and I set up the scaffold off of that line bearing on the 3 braces, the two "nice" ones and the far cobbled together in the woods one. I neglected to put the jack back under it for that cut and should have. The cuts wandered across the lines even in the 24' span about 3/8". Tolerable but could be better, supporting the long log better would have eliminated that.

As we drug it out of the woods across small pieces of logs it deflected maybe 3-4" at times but never seemed to be anywhere near in trouble. Just so nobody thinks this is adequate for a 60' clear span, in the final installation each end will be resting on a 20' log wall and there is an 18' drive through bay between the log cribs, so the beam is actually sized for that 18' clear span. The butt end is select structural, in the midspan area it is #1 and a the top end it drops to a #2. The single piece helps tie the building together. The landowner thinks he found us another tree, we'll try to check it out tomorrow. It looks like rain is moving back into the forcast so we'll try to get this one over to the jobsite in the morning and then either go for the next one or saw at my mill depending on the weather the rest of the week. I am going to tour part of a huge old estate on Wed. It was built in the '30's as the chestnuts were dying and is predominantly chestnut and its' bark, native stone, etc. Should be fun  8).

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2017, 06:32:28 am »
It's fun on this end watching the progress.   ;)
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2017, 06:46:42 am »

 I am enjoying this thread.
I had never heard of poplar bark siding but a quick search and there it is.
I'm wondering how it lasts off of the tree.

Jon
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Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2017, 05:54:35 pm »
If it stays dry or can dry rapidly, as long as any I suppose. Chestnut was the old time stuff popularized around Linville, Blowing Rock and Hendersonville NC around the turn of the century. Now poplar has taken its place, just as it has in the forest.

We got it to the log yard across the road from the barn this morning, piece of cake. Al looked like he was ready to go jousting with that thing dangling out in front of him 40'  :D





We walked bunch of mountain afterwards, found some neat places and kept going a few times even though I knew I was outside of where we could get one out, nice land. We found 3 candidates and cleaned up behind this one, there were 2 good trailerloads of big slabs that will get further processing for something, I voted for dining or picnic tables.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2017, 06:16:38 pm »
 I've moved some long ones with the back half of a running gear. This log would have made a 68'-6" 12"x12".



 
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Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 07:01:53 pm »
The first 60'er got set this afternoon. We lost one in the woods when we opened up a rotten spot inside... on the third face, bummer! We found and finished up another and Al got it to the site yesterday. The remaining three 60' beams will be scarfed, which will be fine. These ones tied together by the four 6x8 tie beams we made today are going to lock the log cribs together well.




Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2017, 11:14:58 pm »
We had to bail in the rain yesterday with just one tie beam in, those peeled poplar logs made a banana peel look positively sticky when they got wet, hopefully we'll get the other 3 ties and the other 60' plate up Wed.
I forgot to take the camera today but set up the trebuchet at a timberframer's house and got it chunking watermelons. When his son got in and saw what we were up to there was talk of watermelon skeet shooting  :D

Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2017, 07:32:47 am »
I forgot to take the camera today but set up the trebuchet at a timberframer's house and got it chunking watermelons. When his son got in and saw what we were up to there was talk of watermelon skeet shooting  :D

Now this needs a picture!

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 10:53:40 pm »
I wasn't there for the mass-a-cree but apparently great fun was had by all protecting America from flying watermelons  :D I think we have a new sport.

The barn project made half the front page of the paper today and most of page 3, well it is a small town. We got the 4 tie beams and the other 60' plate zipped in this morning. Don and I worked in the woods yesterday and dropped another large poplar and began slabbing it up for a 40' beam, it'll get scarfed to make one of the remaining three 60' plates. After lunch today we finished it, cleaned up a bit and drug it out to the road. I got into a little grove of hawthorns and took them out while we were in there, I flat out hate hawthorns... and they apparently return the sentiment. Al will finish pegging down the ties and plates and then get the beam to the site tomorrow then we're off to another part of the farm to get some more.

I've bought a little Gehl 3825 bobcat and have been playing with it here widening the road around the barn, moving mountains of sawdust and building a road to the backside of the high tunnel.  I'm used to hand and foot controls, these are all on the sticks, probably should have held out but it is a nice little older unit that has low hours and was well kept from what I can tell. Should have bought one years ago. Young men buy tools, old men buy equipment  :).

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 07:45:38 pm »
We're slowly plugging away, both 60' plates and tie beams are up on the log cribs. The first scarfed 60' plate is up on its' 9x12 white oak posts to carry the first section of shed roof. The end posts were grooved to accept the tenons on the log extensions that form the 10' section of wall beyond the log cribs.


There was another continuation section of shed 10'  toward the camera in that shot that will be done in timber on a stemwall, but the rafters over the log cribs and this first lofted shed will go in first, then the mason will rotate in while the shed off the far side is being done. They are working on the stemwall for the south shed, to the right end right now.

The rafters were log, flattened on the top side for the skip sheathing. We are doing a minimal skim, code says to keep it less than 30% of diameter. We are letting crook wander side to side and trying to saw the flattest face to preserve the most "meat". The short rafters fit in between the posts on the Lucas but we have some up to 21' and they need to come in and out from the end. We set up 40' of roller table and sawed a 4x12x21' to support a pair of V'ed bunks that support the rafters. We load the rafter outside onto the V bunks with the forks on the loader and then roll it in, saw, roll out, unload and then debark. About 2 minutes of sawing and 10 minutes of debarking.



Partway through the crew needed some 2x6's so we loaded some logs onto the roller tables without our 4x12. We were sawing our way down through the log and neglected to think about how far down the blade drops while swinging between horizontal and vertical. Lucas blades don't quite make it through steel rollers  ::) oops!

Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 08:25:19 pm »
Ouch!

Great thread, thanks!

Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2017, 07:19:58 am »
What a great project and a fine job.
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