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Author Topic: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue  (Read 1769 times)

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Offline dsaw

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Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« on: May 10, 2017, 10:58:55 pm »
I just picked up a Belsaw M14, mounted on a long metal frame to make it portable.  Prior owner had new rollers built because the old ones were too wallowed out.  He installed them, but never ran the mill.  He was planning to use it in a portable mill application, but realized hauling a tractor  along with the mill would be a real pain.  I disconnected the carriage from the wire rope (needs replaced, came with SS replacement cable), and the carriage won't roll much.  What's happened is that the two pieces of angle iron that make of the rail are welded together about every 12-18".  In between these 1" welds, the angle iron has gotten gunk in them and spread apart.  The rollers are machined to about 0.55", and the rails vary from about 0.53"-0.57".  So far, I've tried grinding on the rails with the sponge abraisive wheels; but they don't remove enough metal.  I also hit them with an acetylene torch tonight thinking if it was wood fill, it'd burn up; results were mixed.  It fixed some spots, but not all.  My woodlot (and tractor) are about an hour away, where my good pressure washer also is.  I thought about brining that back this weekend and trying to blast in between them, clamping them, then rewelding them - but I'm beginning to doubt that would help much.  I could see in between the rails when hitting them with the torch and didn't see much gunk there after a few passes.  Latest two choices are to either cut all the existing top welds, cut the welds on one side (freeing one rail), grinding down both inside rails, then rewelding them; or pull the rollers and cut the grove a bit wider.  I have a metal lathe, and I've done some basic projects on it, but I'm no machinist.  I think I could do it, it would just take me awhile (I don't have a good self-centering chuck and I'm slow with the manual one).  Any advice?

Offline grouch

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 12:11:58 am »
Rust is a bigger molecule than iron (steel). Most likely that's what's pushing the rails apart. It's why rust never sleeps. It expands as it forms, that exposes more steel to moisture, repeat.

Have you tried spraying some PB Blaster in there? I'd wet it down with that, then go along tapping on it from various angles with a small hammer. A needle scaler might shake more of it out.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 05:16:02 am »
How about a long handled custom made flange bender?
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 07:02:11 am »
Dsaw, I think you would be further ahead to just replace the track with new angle iron. From what you said I think its two 1/4" angles back to back. If it were mine I would use one heavier angle bolted down. However you weld there will be some movement. Sideway movement or twisting of the carriage should be avoided at all cost. Frank C.
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 07:36:27 am »
Rust probably is a big contributor to the spreading.  I guess there's a slim chance I could pressure wash that out with the smallest noozle.  A few gaps are largest enough for a needle scaler, but most are too small. 

I may end up replacing the rails, just looking for a short cut to avoid it.  To go larger gauge, I'd have to have 1/2" thick 3/4" angle; and I'm not sure there is such a critter.  I think I'd have to go back with the 2x 1/4" pieces it has now.  Although I'd try to do a continuous bead when I welded them together.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2017, 08:07:34 am »
The only 1/2" thick angle iron I've seen is 6" wide.
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Offline Remle

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2017, 08:58:20 am »
For what it's worth, I would use a metal blade cutting blade in a reciprocating saw. Saw down between the welded top portions of the two rails, to grind up the rust, blow that out with air and then clamp the top of the rails and weld as necessary. Lastly pour oil down the rail to retard further rusting.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2017, 09:58:07 am »
Have the wheels opened up . It's a Blade mill not a rocket . If your mill will saw within a 1/16 its better than most . Our mill the guide wheels can move in and out over a 1/16 on the axel . Still saws great . It's called rough sawed for a reason .
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Offline grouch

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2017, 11:00:53 am »
[snip]

  A few gaps are largest enough for a needle scaler, but most are too small. 

[snip]

If you try the needle scaler, just let it hammer on the sides, don't try to get the needles down between the halves of the rail. No need to ruin a needle scaler. ;D

THIS THIS THIS:
Have the wheels opened up . It's a Blade mill not a rocket . If your mill will saw within a 1/16 its better than most . Our mill the guide wheels can move in and out over a 1/16 on the axel . Still saws great . It's called rough sawed for a reason .

Sounds like a voice of experience to me!

It seems to me that big blade is gonna have more influence on the cut than whether the wheels track like a milling machine's table.

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2017, 10:38:14 pm »
I pulled a roller, slapped it in the lathe, opened it to 0.59", and it rolls easily along the whole track; even the parts I haven't removed the surface rust from.  Lathe work took less then 15 minutes (realized I didn't really care about centering it exactly, just had to make sure it was true vertically, just centered it visually).  Unfortunately, it took me far longer then that to get a roller out since my Harbor Freight C-clip pliers didn't like the ones holding the roller in.  I could only get 1 of the 5 off.  Good excuse for a new set C-clamp pliers.

Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 08:27:29 am »
I had the same problem with my m14. 1/2 of the snap rings were missing when I got it and I got to replacing them only to notice that they never touched anything and the pins would not come out of mine without dynamite. I didnt do it but I wanted to replace them with bolts.
PC
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2017, 08:34:11 pm »
dsaw, what does Belsaw use for bearings in the carriage rollers, can they be greased without removing to repack.?? Frank C.
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Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 11:23:51 pm »
I think mine had bushings with a grease zerk on the pin.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 07:39:53 am »
Thanks Paul, the carriage rollers are the weak point in the Belsaw design but theirs little that can be done about it. Any decent sized wheels and you loose cutting depth as the carriage has to pass over the arbor. I wonder if much would be gained by using needle bearings in place of the bushings. Frank C.
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Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 08:11:35 am »
I thought that part worked well enough, I just couldnt keep the snap rings on those pins.

I can see that if you were cutting big logs a lot that those little rollers would be hammered. In the book That came with my m-14 it said not to turn the log on the carriage because the slamming action could cause the track to get out of line. I bet it would be real hard on those rollers that ran on the angle iron. My guess on size was a 2'' round plug 1.75'' long with a 1/2'' groove 1/2'' deep and a 1/2'' hole drilled through the center. I think mine might have been aluminum but I wouldnt swear to that. To be as easy on it as possible you would need to build a deck leading to the mill with a shaft that would spin and some half circle on the shaft so that you could roll the log down and the shaft would cause it to scoot back onto the carriage.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 11:00:21 pm »
The new ones he had built (per Timberking's guidelines, who told him it would be cheaper to have a local machine shop build them), the inner pin is about a 1/2" shaft with holes in the middle and a zerk fitting on the end.  Had to go to the woodlot this weekend for spring maintenance (fix washed out roads, bushhog, spray poison ivy and invasive species......) so not much progress on mill.  Turned another roller tonight, 2 down, 3 to go.  New tires showed up for the trailer, so need to pull the wheels and get them mounted this week.  It's mounted on some old truck axle with 19.5" tires.  I thought about putting a modern trailer axle under it, but 15" wheels would put the blade a bit too close to the ground for comfort while moving.  Those old tires aren't cheap.  I'm not planning to do the mobile sawing thing, but I ended up buying it with a friend, so it'll travel occasionally between our places.

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2017, 03:23:17 pm »
I just put a Belsaw on a 33' bus frame.  My track is in fair shape but I need 4' more so I'll be doing the angle iron thing.  I have it on a trailer axle and tires and always remove the blade when I move it.  Not taking any chances. 
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2017, 10:26:49 pm »
To remove the blade, do you just undo the big nut?

I finished turning all my rollers tonight, and it will now run up and down the rails.  I ended up taking a bit off the outside of 2 of the inside rollers, they seemed to have too tight of a fit to the carriage. 

Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2017, 11:26:23 pm »
Yup. Could be left handed?

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2017, 11:58:28 am »
It is a left hand thread for sure and should be quite tight.  I stick a piece of hardwood to stop the blade from turning.  I had it off last night while adjusting for a little more lead.  I should have put the pillow block with the capscrew adjusters on the pulley end instead so I wouldn't have to take the blade off to adjust.  Maybe a next winter job.
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2017, 09:45:25 pm »
Good to know on the left hand thread.  Just had that issue tonight removing the old truck tires off the axle.  Sheared the 1st nut before I realized one wheel was reverse treaded.  I'd never heard of a wheel being reverse threaded, so didn't think about it.  Other side side is right hand threaded. 

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2017, 10:43:11 pm »
A lot of those truck wheels that are left handed will have an L stamped on the end of the nut or the end of the stud or both. That stands for the last Looser that tightened them while trying to loosen.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
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Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2017, 06:16:20 am »
Good to know on the left hand thread.  Just had that issue tonight removing the old truck tires off the axle.  Sheared the 1st nut before I realized one wheel was reverse treaded.  I'd never heard of a wheel being reverse threaded, so didn't think about it.  Other side side is right hand threaded.

I bet it was a Dodge.
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Offline grouch

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2017, 11:09:35 am »
Good to know on the left hand thread.  Just had that issue tonight removing the old truck tires off the axle.  Sheared the 1st nut before I realized one wheel was reverse treaded.  I'd never heard of a wheel being reverse threaded, so didn't think about it.  Other side side is right hand threaded.

I bet it was a Dodge.

My '49 Olds has left threads on the left, right on the right. Maybe some marketer insisted on that to tell customers the wheels turning would keep the lug nuts on.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2017, 06:20:28 pm »
Ok, who knows how tight to install the left-hand nut to hold on the blade? How many foot lbs?

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 09:21:56 pm »
Tim, I don't recall any torque figure given. Usually hand tight with a wrench same radius as the saw or wack a shorter wrench with a soft hammer. Belsaw collars don't have the two pins that other saws have. Frank C.
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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2017, 09:46:36 pm »
Ok, who knows how tight to install the left-hand nut to hold on the blade? How many foot lbs?

Advice I was given a few decades ago -- run it up 'til it strips out, then give it another quarter turn.                          ((Don't do that)).

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2017, 07:50:48 am »
Tim, I don't recall any torque figure given. Usually hand tight with a wrench same radius as the saw or wack a shorter wrench with a soft hammer. Belsaw collars don't have the two pins that other saws have. Frank C.

Sounds about right.  I use a 24" pipe wrench on a 44" blade and haven't had an issue with blade slipping.  I am on the lookout for a proper wrench before I chew up the nut.  Hopefully sawing again tomorrow- some squared stock for a timberframed picnic shelter we're building at our community hall.  Coolrunner.
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Offline Babylon519

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2017, 04:17:15 pm »
My belsaw manual says the nut holding the blade (left-hand thread) should not be over-tightened. The collar has an engineered bevel on the circumference that should not be 'flattened' against the blade (see below). I use a big wrench to tighten it, but the action of the blade in the log also has the effect of tightening it.
BTW, the left-hand wheel of my rig also uses left-hand-thread lugs. I found that out the same way as Grouch says! I heard a lot of the stake trucks used in the army back in the '50s were the same way - in fact, my wheels are from that era, with the split-rim for added safety (NOT)!  :D


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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 11:22:36 pm »
My tire fiasco took another turn when I went to get them mounted.  The tire company refused to mount the tires on the 5" rims, saying I needed minimum 6" rims.  I asked about companies selling truck rims, and there was a place two blocks away.  The salesman took a look at the rims, he'd never seen anything like them, so he brought in his manager.  His conclusion was that they were popular back in the 50's and 60's; but little hope of finding replacements now.  I searched E-bay; but no luck.

So change of course.  Luckily, I was a cheapskate when I bought the tires.  Walmart.com was $5 cheaper then Amazon.  The beauty of that came through on the return, I just drove them to the closet Walmart, and they gave me the full refund.

Now I'm going to strip off the old axle and put on a "normal" trailer axle.  Total cost is about $100 more, but makes replacement parts much more accessible.  It does necessitate removing the blade for travel, but as others have pointed out; that's advisable.

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2017, 12:10:45 am »
M y Carrage  Has High molly Blocks to Help take Load
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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2017, 01:54:54 pm »
This past weekend, I decided to investigate why my cant gets thicker at the tailend, not the 8' logs but the 16' ones.   I put a string on the track and found that it bowed away from the saw which I guess, throws any overhanging cant outward as it goes by the saw.  I know...I should have made it straight when I built it.  I redrilled and straightened the track which threw my lead off.  Took blade off, adjusted to near limit on my adjustable bearing block, run my carriage by and it's too close now to the blade.  I then reshim the end rollers but the ones under the headblocks are not adjustable.  Sooo... now I'm back to redrilling and moving my entire track out from the blade.  I so hope it cures my little problem as it wasn't that big of a deal to begin with.  I'm sure having fun with this little Belsaw.
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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2017, 12:22:28 am »
Run Cagage past splitter And Measure to Knee They Famous For jumping a Tooth
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2017, 10:36:50 pm »
Finally got the mill to my forest 1:20 away after putting a new axle on it.  Had several other delays, mainly  because it kept raining every weekend.  Got it leveled up and finally put power to it today, and my stuck carriage issue is back.  I ground for several hours on it with an angle grinder, pulled the middle carriage wheel, and got it to move back and forth. However, when I put a log on it, it moves fine in reverse (which is geared down), but gets stuck in the middle in forward.  Put a laser to it, and the middle of the rail jumps out about 3/16" over about a 10' span, then comes back.  I didn't check the carriage travel after putting the new axle on, so I may have torqued something doing that.  I just thought of that, so I'll check tomorrow.  Even if the axle didn't cause it, because it appears to be near where the axle is, I may be able to use that to pull the two sides together and hope it helps the bow.  Otherwise, I'm back to either turning the grove on the wheels even larger on my lathe, installing new rails, or trying to straighten the existing rails.

I was able to get a tiny amount of cutting done (2 faces of a log).  I'd reverse out when it stopped, but it got worse so I had to quit.  The mill is eating my hardwood dowel blade guides in a few minutes; so I'm guessing I need to have the blade hammered.  I was cutting about a 14" poplar, so nothing too dense.

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2017, 04:04:46 am »
Maybe you could use some all-thread rod to push or pull your track back in place.
Mount it in a spot where you could just leave it. 3/4" will give a lot of push. Smaller
will give a lot of pull.
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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 04:19:13 am »
Don't think I'd be trying to saw with bowed rails and a carriage that jams. Bad things are more likely to happen if you have to fight the machine to finish a cut.

I'd probably try something like what Kbeitz suggested, if threaded rod could be used without putting a twist to the rails.

Offline Blaszer

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2017, 10:43:06 am »
Sounds like your lead is off...It will make your blade heat up and do weird stuff..Including wiping out your dowels...

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2017, 01:23:20 pm »
I think my two problems are related since the carriage works with a log on but not cutting, but sticks while trying to cut.  If the blades wobbling too much, that probably contributes to the feeding problem.  I printed off a copy of "The Efficent Saw Mill" and will work through it to make sure I have my adjustments correct this weekend.

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 08:47:52 pm »
Adjusted the plumb and the lead, but couldn't get the blade to keep cutting into the log even with lots of lead.  Decided blade must be too dull.  Changed out the inserts, and now it cuts and feeds.  I still have a wobble in the blade, but now I think it's one or both bearings. 
     I had purchased the inserts a few weeks ago, but having never changed them out, I wasn't sure what I was in for.  So I held out until I was sure I needed to do it.  Took me awhile (I doubt they've been out in many years, and learning as I go), but zipped right through logs after that as fast as I can feed them.  Cut two beams for a log deck and called it a night. 
     Saw guide dowels are lasting much longer, but I may still buy some phenolic rod for more longevity.