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Author Topic: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue  (Read 1473 times)

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Offline dsaw

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Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« on: May 10, 2017, 10:58:55 pm »
I just picked up a Belsaw M14, mounted on a long metal frame to make it portable.  Prior owner had new rollers built because the old ones were too wallowed out.  He installed them, but never ran the mill.  He was planning to use it in a portable mill application, but realized hauling a tractor  along with the mill would be a real pain.  I disconnected the carriage from the wire rope (needs replaced, came with SS replacement cable), and the carriage won't roll much.  What's happened is that the two pieces of angle iron that make of the rail are welded together about every 12-18".  In between these 1" welds, the angle iron has gotten gunk in them and spread apart.  The rollers are machined to about 0.55", and the rails vary from about 0.53"-0.57".  So far, I've tried grinding on the rails with the sponge abraisive wheels; but they don't remove enough metal.  I also hit them with an acetylene torch tonight thinking if it was wood fill, it'd burn up; results were mixed.  It fixed some spots, but not all.  My woodlot (and tractor) are about an hour away, where my good pressure washer also is.  I thought about brining that back this weekend and trying to blast in between them, clamping them, then rewelding them - but I'm beginning to doubt that would help much.  I could see in between the rails when hitting them with the torch and didn't see much gunk there after a few passes.  Latest two choices are to either cut all the existing top welds, cut the welds on one side (freeing one rail), grinding down both inside rails, then rewelding them; or pull the rollers and cut the grove a bit wider.  I have a metal lathe, and I've done some basic projects on it, but I'm no machinist.  I think I could do it, it would just take me awhile (I don't have a good self-centering chuck and I'm slow with the manual one).  Any advice?

Offline grouch

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 12:11:58 am »
Rust is a bigger molecule than iron (steel). Most likely that's what's pushing the rails apart. It's why rust never sleeps. It expands as it forms, that exposes more steel to moisture, repeat.

Have you tried spraying some PB Blaster in there? I'd wet it down with that, then go along tapping on it from various angles with a small hammer. A needle scaler might shake more of it out.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 05:16:02 am »
How about a long handled custom made flange bender?
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 07:02:11 am »
Dsaw, I think you would be further ahead to just replace the track with new angle iron. From what you said I think its two 1/4" angles back to back. If it were mine I would use one heavier angle bolted down. However you weld there will be some movement. Sideway movement or twisting of the carriage should be avoided at all cost. Frank C.
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Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 07:36:27 am »
Rust probably is a big contributor to the spreading.  I guess there's a slim chance I could pressure wash that out with the smallest noozle.  A few gaps are largest enough for a needle scaler, but most are too small. 

I may end up replacing the rails, just looking for a short cut to avoid it.  To go larger gauge, I'd have to have 1/2" thick 3/4" angle; and I'm not sure there is such a critter.  I think I'd have to go back with the 2x 1/4" pieces it has now.  Although I'd try to do a continuous bead when I welded them together.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2017, 08:07:34 am »
The only 1/2" thick angle iron I've seen is 6" wide.
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Offline Remle

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2017, 08:58:20 am »
For what it's worth, I would use a metal blade cutting blade in a reciprocating saw. Saw down between the welded top portions of the two rails, to grind up the rust, blow that out with air and then clamp the top of the rails and weld as necessary. Lastly pour oil down the rail to retard further rusting.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2017, 09:58:07 am »
Have the wheels opened up . It's a Blade mill not a rocket . If your mill will saw within a 1/16 its better than most . Our mill the guide wheels can move in and out over a 1/16 on the axel . Still saws great . It's called rough sawed for a reason .
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Offline grouch

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2017, 11:00:53 am »
[snip]

  A few gaps are largest enough for a needle scaler, but most are too small. 

[snip]

If you try the needle scaler, just let it hammer on the sides, don't try to get the needles down between the halves of the rail. No need to ruin a needle scaler. ;D

THIS THIS THIS:
Have the wheels opened up . It's a Blade mill not a rocket . If your mill will saw within a 1/16 its better than most . Our mill the guide wheels can move in and out over a 1/16 on the axel . Still saws great . It's called rough sawed for a reason .

Sounds like a voice of experience to me!

It seems to me that big blade is gonna have more influence on the cut than whether the wheels track like a milling machine's table.

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2017, 10:38:14 pm »
I pulled a roller, slapped it in the lathe, opened it to 0.59", and it rolls easily along the whole track; even the parts I haven't removed the surface rust from.  Lathe work took less then 15 minutes (realized I didn't really care about centering it exactly, just had to make sure it was true vertically, just centered it visually).  Unfortunately, it took me far longer then that to get a roller out since my Harbor Freight C-clip pliers didn't like the ones holding the roller in.  I could only get 1 of the 5 off.  Good excuse for a new set C-clamp pliers.

Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 08:27:29 am »
I had the same problem with my m14. 1/2 of the snap rings were missing when I got it and I got to replacing them only to notice that they never touched anything and the pins would not come out of mine without dynamite. I didnt do it but I wanted to replace them with bolts.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2017, 08:34:11 pm »
dsaw, what does Belsaw use for bearings in the carriage rollers, can they be greased without removing to repack.?? Frank C.
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Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 11:23:51 pm »
I think mine had bushings with a grease zerk on the pin.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 07:39:53 am »
Thanks Paul, the carriage rollers are the weak point in the Belsaw design but theirs little that can be done about it. Any decent sized wheels and you loose cutting depth as the carriage has to pass over the arbor. I wonder if much would be gained by using needle bearings in place of the bushings. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 08:11:35 am »
I thought that part worked well enough, I just couldnt keep the snap rings on those pins.

I can see that if you were cutting big logs a lot that those little rollers would be hammered. In the book That came with my m-14 it said not to turn the log on the carriage because the slamming action could cause the track to get out of line. I bet it would be real hard on those rollers that ran on the angle iron. My guess on size was a 2'' round plug 1.75'' long with a 1/2'' groove 1/2'' deep and a 1/2'' hole drilled through the center. I think mine might have been aluminum but I wouldnt swear to that. To be as easy on it as possible you would need to build a deck leading to the mill with a shaft that would spin and some half circle on the shaft so that you could roll the log down and the shaft would cause it to scoot back onto the carriage.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 11:00:21 pm »
The new ones he had built (per Timberking's guidelines, who told him it would be cheaper to have a local machine shop build them), the inner pin is about a 1/2" shaft with holes in the middle and a zerk fitting on the end.  Had to go to the woodlot this weekend for spring maintenance (fix washed out roads, bushhog, spray poison ivy and invasive species......) so not much progress on mill.  Turned another roller tonight, 2 down, 3 to go.  New tires showed up for the trailer, so need to pull the wheels and get them mounted this week.  It's mounted on some old truck axle with 19.5" tires.  I thought about putting a modern trailer axle under it, but 15" wheels would put the blade a bit too close to the ground for comfort while moving.  Those old tires aren't cheap.  I'm not planning to do the mobile sawing thing, but I ended up buying it with a friend, so it'll travel occasionally between our places.

Offline Coolrunner

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2017, 03:23:17 pm »
I just put a Belsaw on a 33' bus frame.  My track is in fair shape but I need 4' more so I'll be doing the angle iron thing.  I have it on a trailer axle and tires and always remove the blade when I move it.  Not taking any chances. 
Kubota M6800, IH434,IH500C,MF130,JDMT, JD1010,FarmallA, Belsaw on busframe

Offline dsaw

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2017, 10:26:49 pm »
To remove the blade, do you just undo the big nut?

I finished turning all my rollers tonight, and it will now run up and down the rails.  I ended up taking a bit off the outside of 2 of the inside rollers, they seemed to have too tight of a fit to the carriage. 

Offline paul case

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2017, 11:26:23 pm »
Yup. Could be left handed?

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline Coolrunner

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Re: Belsaw M14 Rail Issue
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2017, 11:58:28 am »
It is a left hand thread for sure and should be quite tight.  I stick a piece of hardwood to stop the blade from turning.  I had it off last night while adjusting for a little more lead.  I should have put the pillow block with the capscrew adjusters on the pulley end instead so I wouldn't have to take the blade off to adjust.  Maybe a next winter job.
Kubota M6800, IH434,IH500C,MF130,JDMT, JD1010,FarmallA, Belsaw on busframe