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First post - looking to get started.

Started by GusHigh, May 03, 2017, 10:57:28 PM

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GusHigh

Hey Folks.
A  year ago I was fortunate enough to be able to pick up a nice piece of bush land (400 acres) with another family member.
Land is in the upper upper west end of the Ottawa Valley - white pine, oak, black cherry maple, beach, birch, hemlock, spruce, a bit of cedar and of course poplar every where.  We also have a fair bit of Ash that the bugs haven't found yet but I'm sure that it's just a matter of time until they do.

The land was last logged about 30 years ago and the road access is quite good.

The property was purchased primarily for recreation - hunting/fishing but we would also like to cover a bit of our maintanence costs - possibly by sustainably logging a bit each year.

We also need to build a new camp/cottage on it as there is nothing left worth saving of the old one that's there.

Im really itching to pulling the trigger and get a bandsaw mill - I like what I see in the SMG Champion line - in particular the Econo-13 model

I'm not looking to start making my living by logging/sawing, but I would like to mill the lumber for the cottage  and mill enough wood annually to cover the cost of the mill, the property taxes, fuel cost for hauling my firewood home, seed cost for our food (deer) plots etc.   

Rather than asking how much money can I make with Mill X vs Mill Y, what I'd really like to get an opinion on is how much Mill is needed to cut about $10,000 in lumber over the course of say 10-15 weekends a year.  I would of course be focusing on the higher value wood like Oak, Cherry and Maple.

We have an old tractor with a FEL an a brush mower - we've started clearing/opening up the old skidded trails so getting logs to the mill isn't going to be that big of a hastle/grunt. As I said, road access is good so hauling bundles out in a 4x10' tandem trailer with my truck won't be a problem.

Am I nuts for thinking about getting a mill with this kind of plan in mind?

I have zero interest in bringing
in a logger so that's not an option for me, but is there be a simpler revenue source from the land  available that I haven't though of yet?  Should I be looking at something like live harvesting saplings for transplant or selling "character" logs to log home builders? 

Any and all thoughts, real world experience and opinions will be greatfully received.

Thanks.



Gary_C

Quote from: GusHigh on May 03, 2017, 10:57:28 PM

Am I nuts for thinking about getting a mill with this kind of plan in mind?

I have zero interest in bringing
in a logger so that's not an option for me, but is there be a simpler revenue source from the land  available that I haven't though of yet?  Should I be looking at something like live harvesting saplings for transplant or selling "character" logs to log home builders? 


Nuts is a pretty strong word for that type of thinking. Naive would be a better word.

What's missing from your thinking is a good business plan that would start with a marketing plan. You need to first decide what products you would plan to produce, where you could sell such products, and what volume you would need to produce to make the money you need. Next you need to discover what equipment would be needed to produce those products, what the cost would be and how much would your operating costs be to run that equipment.

It takes a lot more equipment than a sawmill, tractor and a trailer to log, saw and produce a finished product for resale.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ianab

Gary has pointed out the main issue.

Marketing.

Yes you can buy a mill, and do some small scale logging with a farm tractor / log arch / winch etc. You can build a cabin etc assuming local regulations allow. The remoter the area, and more likely that will be OK. That parts not crazy. The savings you make in building materials will more than pay for the mill etc. It's a lot of hard work and some new things to learn, but if you like a bit of a challenge it's all good.

The challenge becomes selling small volumes of wood on your local markets.

Another option might be to look at "value added". Things like garden sheds, bar tops, outdoor furniture etc. Things that are relatively basic to build without setting up a whole woodworking shop. It's more work, but you produce items that have a much wider market. You also create that desired value from many less trees.

Another thing is that you need to have a plan for your low grade wood. If you simply harvest all the most valuable trees, what do you have left?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

millcreek40

You will have lots of firewood!!! Sell the firewood
Two 240A Timberjacks, Mack log truck, Multitek 2040 wood processor.

GusHigh

Thanks for the feedback - great point about what to do with the low grade wood.  While I don't plan on harvesting anywhere near the annual growth rate, I could see after a decade or so the balance of diversity might get a bit messed up.  I like the idea of milling a "package" like a garden shed.

As far as marketing goes, I have a local kitchen manufacture that processes rough sawn for some of their cabinetry, and at least one other small shop that does custom work that would be interested in buying boards.  I also have a log home builder looking primarily for pine logs but that would probably also take some boards.  I would obviously like to find a couple more "regular customers" to help balance things out.
I want to avoid posting in on-line classifieds if possible.

As for the lower grade stuff, one thing that I had though of was processing the hemlock into dock boards for the local marinas.  I also have a contact at one of the local cottage associations so that might be another market for dock boards.

I'm not going to touch any decent size white birch - there is a 1st nations reserve not to far that is making/teaching birch bark canoe construction but there isn't a lot of birch big enough for that locally. Maybe in 20 or 30 years I'll be able to help them out lol.

Poplar will be the one I'm not sure what to do with. I haven't found any mills locally that are taking poplar logs and like I said, I'm not really interested in having a logger logger in.  Maybe I use that for out buildings/drying sheds etc.

One other thing that I am trying is to establish american chestnut.  It was not native here because the climate was traditionally too harsh, however in the last 30 years they have re-clasified the plant hardiness zone - yeah climate change! 
Because there were never native, I'm hoping I'll be "quarantined" from the blight.  If I can get them established and start producing saplings I'd be able to sell every one to deer hunters.  Plus we will need something other than poplar to replace all the ash that is going to die off.


 

Den-Den

If you have 10 - 15 weekends per year for just milling, a manual mill will do the job.  If logging, milling, processing dried wood and sales has to happen during those 10 - 15 weekends, you have unreasonable expectations.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

GusHigh

I forgot to mention that there will be 2-3 people working most weekends if that makes a difference.

Puffergas

You might need to choose between recreational land activities or going into business. Or reconsider the right forester/logger plan.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

dustintheblood

I'd suggest you get up with the folks at the Eastern Ontario Model Forest.  They have a ton of resources to help with education.  They do woodlot tours and have a real good approach to managing for money and ecology.   
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

ChugiakTinkerer

Welcome to the forum GusHigh.

I'm a newbie hobbyist with a small manual mill, and I have no problem milling 300 bf in a short day.  What slows me down is handling the wood and material by hand.  With a helper and a FEL of adequate size I expect there would be little problem maintaining a 1,000 bf weekend rate for milling.  If that is the range you're looking for then I imagine any mill comparable to my HM130 would be sufficient.

If I were attempting this project I would look at it as a recreational effort with keeping costs limited.  Save the lumber sales for phase two.  Start out by buying a small manual mill, preferably used but fully functional, and see if that meets the needs.  If a market is found for lumber or a niche product then transition into that if it works out.

Consider that the plan is to have family working together.  Unless there is some prior success doing that, you should definitely set the bar low for initial goals.  if after the first season or two everything is working out great then sell the mill and buy hydraulic, get more or better support equipment, etc.

Just my thoughts, and I have no experience working land for timber.  But I do have experience working with family and I'm not eager to repeat that.  Your mileage may vary, best of luck with the adventure!
Woodland Mills HM130

TKehl

Will you be selling lumber green, air dried, or kiln dried?  Will you be sorting for grade?

There are a lot possible on 400 acres.  If it hasn't been managed, I'd start with focusing on low grade and the dead/dying trees to let the high grade increase in value.  Over time this can be $$$.  You may want to get an appraised value of the forest for tax purposes.  (Basis value)

Online direct market ads will generate better revenue than places used to paying wholesale prices.  They are also more apt to be interested in "character" wood.  (IE low grade)  However, this requires more work.  I'm also a fan of selling the story.  People pay premium for someone who is taking a limited harvest. 

Keep reading.  Lots of good advice on the board.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Gary_C

Quote from: GusHigh on May 04, 2017, 07:22:04 AM
As far as marketing goes, I have a local kitchen manufacture that processes rough sawn for some of their cabinetry, and at least one other small shop that does custom work that would be interested in buying boards.  I also have a log home builder looking primarily for pine logs but that would probably also take some boards.  I would obviously like to find a couple more "regular customers" to help balance things out.
I want to avoid posting in on-line classifieds if possible.


What do you know about grading lumber, kiln drying, surfacing and straight line ripping?
Most all kitchen cabinet shops only buy kiln dried, S4S, Select and FAS grade lumber. Plus you need a climate controlled storage area to accumulate inventory to have on hand for when the buyer suddenly needs delivery of pallet quantities.

Don't underestimate the knowledge and equipment needed for commercial sales.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Riwaka

There are some places around the globe, that it is more economic to fell sawable logs and turn the logs into firewood yourself than sell them to a logger to send through the timber making process.
Might be better to focus on safe as possible felling, in woods hauling and firewood processing. Firewood sales pay for saw timber for cottage. No mill purchase, operating and maintenance costs (nor possibility of injury in mill operating learning phase). Possible theft of mill if you leave it in woods. ,ight want to leave as little machinery/ equipment as possible in woods. Hidden trail security cameras on access tracks to record vehicle plates.

deerguy

GusHigh,
I like the way you're looking at your property....using it for practical purposes with an eye on sustainability and possibly making a few dollars. You've gotten great advise from many members here more experienced than I am, but I want to add 1 item I didn't see mentioned. Living a few hours NW of you, I have many family/friends doing what you're doing. The big issue around here is stamped lumber. You can mill all the lumber you want, but unless you have access to a good planer and someone who can grade/stamp your lumber, the building inspector will never approve the build. It's easy to say that they won't bother you building way off the beaten path, but when you have all your lumber milled and someone from the Municipality shows up everything changes pretty quick. We also learned the hard way it is difficult to insure a new bush camp without a building permit that's been " signed off " by the appropriate Inspector. I still think you're headed in the right direction and encourage you to pursue your plan,  but I wanted to mention a few stumps we've tripped over already !

Deerguy
I knew she was a keeper when she told me to buy the old skidder !!!!!

GusHigh

Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on May 04, 2017, 12:55:19 PM
Welcome to the forum GusHigh.

I'm a newbie hobbyist with a small manual mill, and I have no problem milling 300 bf in a short day.  What slows me down is handling the wood and material by hand.  With a helper and a FEL of adequate size I expect there would be little problem maintaining a 1,000 bf weekend rate for milling.  If that is the range you're looking for then I imagine any mill comparable to my HM130 would be sufficient.

If I were attempting this project I would look at it as a recreational effort with keeping costs limited.  Save the lumber sales for phase two.  Start out by buying a small manual mill, preferably used but fully functional, and see if that meets the needs.  If a market is found for lumber or a niche product then transition into that if it works out.

Consider that the plan is to have family working together.  Unless there is some prior success doing that, you should definitely set the bar low for initial goals.  if after the first season or two everything is working out great then sell the mill and buy hydraulic, get more or better support equipment, etc.

Just my thoughts, and I have no experience working land for timber.  But I do have experience working with family and I'm not eager to repeat that.  Your mileage may vary, best of luck with the adventure!


Hey. Thanks,

That basically sums up the idea floating around in my brain.

- we need to put up a camp/cottage, a firewood shed, a secure garage for the tractor and other big equipment (plow, disker etc) and we need a secure tool shed. That's not all going to happen overnight so we can use those projects to get proficient at milling.

- we will also need to build secure storage for the mill and some drying sheds

- by the time all of that gets done we should know what we are into in terms of our capacity and capabilities when it comes to an annual production rate - I'm thinking between 5000 and 10000 bd ft a year is a doable target but I won't really know until we get at it.

-  no problem working with family - grew up working in family business.

As for some of the other thoughts other posters have added (and I am greatful for)

- selling firewood is a lost cause around here. Between the amount of dead ash being cut and the amount of 60-70 year old bush lots getting mowed down any converted back to tillable land, it's hard the get people to haul firewood away for free. I'm looking out at the field behind me with about 7 acres of bush and about 3 kms of fence line (with some really nice oak and cherry) laid down and waiting to get processed - the sad reality is most of it will get piled and burned on the field.

- grading - at this point I'm not going to bother having any of the lumber graded, I don't think it makes sense in the volume I'll be dealing with and the needs of the end users I'm looking at. (The kitchen guy would be using it for small stuff like floor transitions, custom matching existing trim, maybe butcher blocks etc).

Stamped lumber for building - DeerGuy the municiplity is already taxing us for having a camp on the property - they don't care about how hunting camps are built, they just care about collecting their taxes.  If we were ever going to sell the property that would be something to be considered though.



mike_belben

Ties, excavator mats and skidder bridges.

Lots of empty flatbeds running south for another front haul.  set up shop and the buyer will find you.
Praise The Lord

Ianab

QuoteStamped lumber for building - DeerGuy the municiplity is already taxing us for having a camp on the property - they don't care about how hunting camps are built, they just care about collecting their taxes.  If we were ever going to sell the property that would be something to be considered though.

Un-stamped should be fine for sheds and outbuildings. You will soon work out what a "decent" board is, and which ones to throw on the burn pile or cut into shorts around a defect.

For your inhabited cabin, consider using cheap (but grade stamped) construction lumber for the structural parts. Floor joists, wall framing and roof trusses etc. This keep the insurance assessors and building inspectors happy. Then use your better home sawn lumber for flooring, cladding (interior and exterior) and interior trim / furniture. All the stuff you actually see. Basically doing this should effectively pay for the mill, and give you enough experience to be a competent sawyer. 

Then if you have the contacts to sell a bit of stuff as a part time venture, carry on. Solid wood fireplace mantles, solid wood bar tops and interesting tables / benches etc seem to be things you can produce and sell on a smaller scale because you aren't competing in the bulk wholesale / retail field. Find the things that you can move for decent money, and concentrate on those.

It's very seldom that the collective forum wisdom tells someone NOT to buy a sawmill, that's just not how we work around here.  :D Just be realistic about what your business model is actually going to be. You may not even end up working how you originally intended.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Stoneyacrefarm

One thing that is really important here that was already mentioned is to come up with a plan.
Put everything down on paper and look it over multiple times.
Decide what you can do and what you need to buy or have done for you.
I find for me when I'm starting a new project is to put it all out there.
Try to keep your numbers and values as accurate as possible.
Weed out what is not realistic to accomplish and set yourself some goals.
Long term and short term.
Good luck.
It sounds like you are well on your way to getting started.
Work hard. Be rewarded.

nativewolf

I'd just mention that chestnut blight also impacts other species, just less so.  So if you have anything related to American chestnut (european, chinkapen, etc) the blight will migrate there too.

Liking Walnut

mike_belben

With regard to business plans.. Im not gonna say im against them.. But dont be obsessive about it, unless Christ himself wrote you that business plan. A person who has not crossed the bridge of a particular business typically does not know what lay on the other side.   The plan is always to do what is marketable or.. atleast what suits your personal needs in this case ...maximize revenue, minimize unnecessary expense and effort and minimize taxable burden.  If thats not your plan then you need to rethink things.

People always say hire a good accountant and i agree... But i say read a good tax strategy book.  Your accountant cant know everything you do about your future, but if you know a little about taxes you can grow in the right direction instead of against the grain. 

You dont want to take all your money out in payroll cash.. That is taxed on your w2 and deductible by the business unless you are a sole proprietor.. Then the person and the business are as one and business income/expense is claimed on 1040 scheduleC.  You want to be paid indirectly in assets that are deducted from the businesses taxable base.  If you have a high w2 income from your primary job, absolutely start a sole proprietorship and buy machinery.. You get paid back in refunds.  Drive a company truck, own a company bobcat skidder excavator, etc.  Never stop buying deductible equipment and assets to keep your income levels down, ever.  Understand depreciation tables. Which assets are 7 years and which are 30 etc.

So lets say you need lumber for outbuildings now.. You start a sawing business and it pays for the things you would otherwise purchase with your after tax wages from your 9-5.  When there is surplus income you buy a road grader to inprove your roads. It keeps you from showing a big taxable base. The sawing orders slow down but you get a contract for some road and snow work for the machine.  Then buy the next piece and the next.  Whatever equipment is idle lease it out.  If you have a stable of equipment you can always have cashflow by jumping on the one thats paying right now.  If theres "too much" going on... You develop an employee to run that aspect of the business while you are on to the other.  Maybe down the road you find yourself logging, developing a few lots and selling a couple houses.  Whatever.  We can all preach but nobody knows what tomorrow will bring.  I never heard a man say "i had too many options" when it came to making money. 

No matter what your business plan says, youll dance to the beat of whatever the market tells you, but it wont tell you much until you hang a shingle.  When times are tough the person with options grinds it out and the one who has all his eggs in one basket gets ground up.   All my businesses have been accidental. 

Hone your skills on taxes and machinery, let the market blow you into your niche.  Youre money isnt spent when its invested in serviceable equipment.. Its just converted temporarily.  Like a really heavy savings bond.   Goodluck
Praise The Lord

ChugiakTinkerer

I'll confess to being someone who probably over-analyzes many big decisions.  My spreadsheets have been helpful some times, but I think more often than not they got me drilling into minutia that ultimately didn't factor into my decision.  I think a business plan can do that too, and if one isn't careful the plan becomes a story that sounds enticing but isn't tied to reality.

Where the benefit lies in writing down a plan is when you take a long honest look at all the negatives.  The costs, the time, the lost opportunities, these all should be honestly appraised before you get too far down the road.  For example, what will be the cost for your equipment, maintenance on the equipment, repairs on the equipment, insurance on the equipment, etc?  If you underestimate these costs and then find down the road that your project is bleeding money, this will likely lead to much unhappiness.  If instead you are prepared for an expensive operation and it ends up costing that much you will have at least anticipated the impacts.  If the costs are less, or you even end up making a small profit then it will be like manna falling from heaven.
Woodland Mills HM130

mike_belben

I know quite a handful of "successful" business owners who are miserable and married to their jobs at twice the tax rate. Away from family, home, hobbies, fishing, etc.  And i guess that has shaped my perspective.

Never go into business chasing money.  Go into business because you are magnetized to whatever the thing is.. That thing you cant stay away from.  Find a way to make that thing pay.  If you cant, keep your day job separate from your passion.

You never have to work another day in your life if you love what you do.
Praise The Lord

Stoneyacrefarm

Don't go into this blind and unguided.
At least have a plan of attack for where you want to be.
I have done things both ways and can tell you from experience.
If you set yourself some reasonable goals and meet them you will go a lot farther than running forward blindly.
Your personality will decide whether you need a full scale business plan or you can go from your shoestrings.
Good luck.
It sounds like you will do well.
Work hard. Be rewarded.

GusHigh

Judging by what people are asking for used mills on Kijiji/Craigslist I think I should work buying a new mill, using it for 10 or 15 years and then selling it for more than I paid for it into my business plan. Lol.

Is it bad etiquette to take the price list brochure for a comperable new mill to show a guy trying to sell a used mill for more money? 

I think asking prices around here might have more to due with limited supply of both new and used mills.

Puffergas

Just make an offer for the mill and if he bits - fine. And if not; that's also fine.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

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