Wheel loader to support sawmill

T-mobile dimension · April 30, 2017, 03:37:26 PM

I am looking at older wheel loaders to support my mobile dimension sawmill. I want as small of a loader as I can get without being too small. I have it narrowed down to a cat 910, case w14 or a case W11b. Just hoping you all can give me your opinions on those machines. I am located in the redwood country of Northern California and big diameter logs are common. Everything will be 20 feet or shorter though. The idea with these smaller loaders is I am hoping to move it myself with a 20k gooseneck and my 1 ton dually. I have Seen a W11 case and 910 cat but haven't had a chance to check out any w14s yet.
I used a t-190 tracked bobcat with a grapple for a while worked ok but the tipping load was not enough for me and they cost too much.
The W11b weighs 12,000 lbs and the tipping load is 9000. It looks really convenient to get in and out of all day and easy to tow so I am leaning that way but I am worried I will be disappointed when it comes to bigger logs. Does anyone know the actual operating weight of a cat 910? The w14 looks like 15800, a little heavy for a gooseneck
I would greatly appreciate your opinions please.

longtime lurker · April 30, 2017, 04:45:15 PM

http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specification?type=Construction+Equipment&category=Wheel+Loader&make=Caterpillar&model=910&modelid=91542

Ritchiespecs is the first place to look for basic specs on common earthmoving equipment. Per that page operating weight on a 910 is 14210 lbs.
Further down the page you'll see information for static tipping load. If you divide that number by 2 you get a pretty accurate working payload, which in this case (9876.7 lbs / 2) is 4900 pound+ change.

Problem with all things earthmoving is that to get one big enough to actually do some work its got to be heavy which makes for transport headaches. If you need to stay under a weight limit you might do better to look at a 4WD forklift like a JCB 930/940 or similar. They'll lift more weight then the loader but because of the design will weigh a lot less - all that front clearance on a loader makes for a long lever arm keeping the back wheels on the ground:

My LD8R loader is rated at a 9052 lb SWL and weighs 16 ton more or less.
My JCB forklift is rated at 8820 lb SWL and weighs about 7.5 ton.

Thing being of course that the JCB can lift 4 ton and thats all it can lift. After that the back wheels come up and she aint going no-where.
The LD8 is stable with 4 ton and after that she gets a bit tippy.... but it can handle 6t with care and the back wheels dont come off the ground properly till shes got around 8 ton on her and you can always engage 4WD and sneak around the yard on 2 wheels :D

T-mobile dimension · April 30, 2017, 05:19:05 PM

I saw the Richie specs for the cat. What is confusing is I was at the cat dealer and asked if they could look up specs for the 910. They dig around there database and found that 14600 lbs was the shipping weight and it had the bucket listed as +800 and cab as +1000lbs. So that would make it total 16,400 plus the weight of fuel and oil. Could they be right? I assumed the w14 case would be bigger than the cat and it is 15,800 reddy to go with operator per case specs.
I thought about the all terrain forklifts but I assumed they wouldn't be as good at retrieving logs from the woods. I won't be doing that every day but sometimes people around here drop there trees before they have a plan to get them out. I have a job coming up with 30mbf of redwoods scattered around there property. That one is flat land but I wasn't sure if a job forklift wood be too low slung for the woods? There is a jcb at a rental yard, $3000 a month though!

Larch · April 30, 2017, 05:34:22 PM

I think you should try a rough terrain extended reach forklift before you do anything. You cannot impeach the reach.

longtime lurker · April 30, 2017, 06:04:02 PM

Forklift is going to be a bit of a fail in the woods. Not so much ground clearance as just being configured wrong - you can't really tow much out with them, you can lift the log on the front but wont fit out through the trees, you could maybe chain the log to the forks and drag them out backwards but thats not real good for the mast. Maybe an arch behind it would be okay?
Loader with rippers at least you got some way to lift the log off the ground and pull it facing the right way. I've done that before, but most loader rippers arent high lift enough to really get the nose of the log up properly. Again an arch might be the way to go.

I'm a firm believer in hire and try. Hire the forklift for a few days when you've got work on. Hire a similar sized loader another time. That way you get to evaluate them properly for strengths and weaknesses before you own the repair bills.
We've got an Agrison TX926 (chinese 926 copy) on hire this week for just that reason. I need another all terrain forklift with some crossover capacity. It's a bit of a fail - the machine itself is okay but its not the right machine for the job I need it for - too bulky in a confined space. Dollar wise its a no brainer - it might be a little bit jerky and not quite the fit and finish of a Cat, but I could buy one of these new for $40k and the Cat new would cost $130k. For a machine that walks around the yard with packs of timber on the front for an hour a day its not hard to figure which is the better value for money.

paul case · April 30, 2017, 06:15:37 PM

My take on this is to get a parbuckling set up for your trailer to load logs with. A much smaller tractor would skid most logs if that was necessary to load them. Get the loader you want for around the mil yard and leave it there. That skid steer would probably push too heavy logs up a ramp on the side of the trailer and I know it would pull them from the other side.

That big heavy loader is going to require some hard ground to operate it and will be tough on your truck to haul it.

My $.02 worth.

PC

ladylake · April 30, 2017, 06:26:27 PM

If you have a lot of space a front end loader should work good, I'm running a Volvo Mct125c in my rather tight log yard and it works great with the 1 arm and side door entrance. lift a 5500 # log. They make a 135 or 145 also which would lift even more. Mine weighs 10800#, not light but not real heavy. Steve

4x4American · April 30, 2017, 06:37:31 PM

I've used a cat 938 loader when cutting trees down to skid them and load them around the gravel pit where I used to work. It worked decent enough for that. However, I wouldn't want to be going on portable jobs with it. CustomSawyer has had or does have any type of rolling stock there is to own. And when I needed to upgrade from my farm tractor that couldn't pick up much more than 2,000lbs, I asked him what he recommended. Prior to talking to him I was set on a Lull. He has one of them too. He said if there was one piece of rolling stock he couldn't be without it'd be his Cat 420E IT. So I talked with the Cat sales guy and he found me a nice used one to fit my budget and needs, and I wouldn't wanna be without it. It is powerful and just doesn't say no. He's cutting 40' hardwood logs and using his backhoe to do it. Plus, the IT means it's a tool carrier. So, without getting out of the cab I can change from bucket to forks to a graplle if I had one. It has the aux hydraulics upfront for that. Highly recommended, and can be pulled behind a pickup on a gooseneck if you have a heavy duty setup

ladylake · April 30, 2017, 07:03:48 PM

Something like this would work good at a good price. https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/18812897/2013-volvo-mct135c. Steve

Gearbox · April 30, 2017, 07:28:40 PM

If you look at Case . Some years back they made them that the back Engine turned and they front axel was locked . When you came up to a truck and tried to line up the tail would wag and the bucket would stay in line . Hard for a operator to get used to .

Ohio_Bill · April 30, 2017, 09:22:09 PM

I bought an Allis Chalmers I500 several years ago and it has served me well. It is great around the mill and for moving lumber it is great. It is kind of a pain unloading trucks because it won't reach all the way across the truck. A couple of years ago I bought an AC 840 which is about the size of the 910 cat and W14 Case. It is a great addition to the mill. It may be my lack of experience, but you have to watch what you are doing in tight places or bad things can happen. The 840 is great for unloading trucks and moving logs. I have less than $10,000 in both.

4x4American · April 30, 2017, 09:23:44 PM

Ohio Bill, I see people with "lumber forks" that are like 8' long and you can get them as slip ons so alls ya gotta do it drive into it

Ohio_Bill · April 30, 2017, 10:21:13 PM

For unloading 8 ft forks would be nice .

Ron Wenrich · May 01, 2017, 06:59:39 AM

When you're talking about large diameter, 20' logs, I'm thinking you're going to be needing some fairly large equipment to move them. What size of log is a "large diameter" to you?

longtime lurker · May 01, 2017, 07:43:51 AM

Problem with 8' forks is you're back to the fulcrum aspect: the further out from the front axle of the machine the load center lies the more leverage it exerts - so you need more machine behind the front axle to counterbalance it.

In practice I can handle a "half pack" (30" x 15" x 20'6") of timber with a 2.5t forklift. When the same half pack is on the end of 8' slippers a 2½ ton lift doesn't stand a chance, and a 4 tonner is struggling. The only thing with 8' slippers is you can walk a load across a truck one end at a time, then ditch the slippers for the close side of the truck. But a fixed 8' fork can be a problem child because you cant get enough fork under a load to keep your CG back without taking half a truckload which then exceeds your weight capacity, and you have the same problem loading the close side of a truck unless your dunnage is like a foot high.

Its a vicious cycle, and the only solution is buy bigger machines if you play with bigger logs.

nativewolf · May 01, 2017, 07:59:51 AM

Quote from: 4x4American on April 30, 2017, 06:37:31 PM
I've used a cat 938 loader when cutting trees down to skid them and load them around the gravel pit where I used to work. It worked decent enough for that. However, I wouldn't want to be going on portable jobs with it. CustomSawyer has had or does have any type of rolling stock there is to own. And when I needed to upgrade from my farm tractor that couldn't pick up much more than 2,000lbs, I asked him what he recommended. Prior to talking to him I was set on a Lull. He has one of them too. He said if there was one piece of rolling stock he couldn't be without it'd be his Cat 420E IT. So I talked with the Cat sales guy and he found me a nice used one to fit my budget and needs, and I wouldn't wanna be without it. It is powerful and just doesn't say no. He's cutting 40' hardwood logs and using his backhoe to do it. Plus, the IT means it's a tool carrier. So, without getting out of the cab I can change from bucket to forks to a graplle if I had one. It has the aux hydraulics upfront for that. Highly recommended, and can be pulled behind a pickup on a gooseneck if you have a heavy duty setup

I love a backhoe but...isn't that Cat backhoe get a bit long around a log deck? I guess it is still shorter than a Lull (my personal wish list toy) but I always thought the Lull would be impractical around a saw yard. The small loaders look about as good as they get to me, that AC 840 would be great moving snow or logs.

longtime lurker · May 01, 2017, 08:19:55 AM

Problem with mill loaders is when you got one of these

You work it like one of these

And you work that one like it was this size

And you drag that poor old thing around the country because its easier to shift then this one

when all you really need is a pair of Cat 988G log loaders but you just cant DanG afford them because you're perpetually broke from fixing antique and/or undersized machinery up.

(There, I got to show off my toy collection too!!!)

paul case · May 01, 2017, 09:02:25 AM

Your just begging to fun over that saw with the JCB!

PC

sealark37 · May 01, 2017, 09:33:20 AM

The Cat 910 would be a very useful machine around the log deck and saw mill. Parts availability is excellent.

Dave Shepard · May 01, 2017, 10:49:42 AM

For around the sawmill, a Lull would be my number one choice. If you ever have to unload a log truck or trailer, it takes a very big payloader to lift above the stakes. Also, sitting off to the side you have much better visibility when getting under things with the forks.

T-mobile dimension · May 01, 2017, 12:11:59 PM

Wow 19 replies you guys are on it!
I am trying to keep my setup mobile so I don't have to truck logs. Planning on offering a discount if people do want to bring them to me but so far the bit I have done and have orders for nobody wants to pay for trucking. That is the motivation for a lighter moveable machine. I would say the average logs will be 23" diameter but I have 60" plus redwoods and 48" Doug fir often. When I got into this I didn't think there were many big trees left but it turns out the people who want me to mill are all small parcials of land and trees around there homes that were left standing when everything else was cut last. Basically I need to find the happy medium between size and lifting force. Often my customers don't mind too much if I buck the big logs shorter. It's a pain in the butt to do but my mobile dimension can be set up on top of a log if a customer wants some 20' lumber from a large log or one of these old growths lying around. So far I haven't had any trees brought to me but I would like to head that direction some day and it would be nice to have the ability to unload log trucks but I might have to get a bigger piece of equipment when that day comes.
I have a dodge 3500 dually and want a 20k tandem dually gooseneck. hoping to get a machine that I can move and be self sufficient. I think 16000 lbs on a gooseneck isn't the end of the world but those wheel loader are tall and top heavy so I am not too sure about it. Anyone have 1st hand experience? I have spent a lot of time driving commercial truck so I know how to drive loaded heavy, just not with little trucks so don't know how it will work out.

T-mobile dimension · May 01, 2017, 12:51:59 PM

Here are some pics of my setup

Larch · May 01, 2017, 01:30:27 PM

These are really nice machines -- light weight, aux hydraulics, side door and some reach. They haul easily with a one ton. Ground clearance isn't massive but it's good.

However it is true that skidding trees can be hard on a boom.

A picture off the internet of a Bobcat v417:

ChugiakTinkerer · May 01, 2017, 02:03:42 PM

That picture of the V519 reminded me of a user on the TractorByNet forum that goes by the handle of Xfaxman. He's an advocate of the Versahandler for just about any job that needs doing. You might check out his posts over there to see if a telehandler might work for your needs.

longtime lurker · May 01, 2017, 04:06:49 PM

I think you're at the start of a slippery slope RE all the junk you suddenly need to play sawmillers. Because a saw is only the start of it.

When I re-entered the industry 10 years back I was just going to saw a few logs for me.
In about 3 weeks that turned into well I'm just going to saw a few logs for me plus sell a few boards along the way to selected customers.
Which turned into a few logs a day for lumber to sell and I still havent saw my own stuff I wanted. And we needed a loader dedicated to the mill.
And a bigger faster mill. As well as rather then replacement.
And a loader for the bush end
And a kiln
And a truck
And
And
And

Be really careful here. At the moment you're a portable sawmiller looking for equipment to handle logs, and that a sensible thing to look at.
As soon as that equipment goes into the weeds to pull logs out you're working as a logger. Nothing wrong with that but make sure you get paid for being a logger. If you add another service you should be paid for it. End of story.

Just always be thinking about how you are going to get the customer to pay for the service rendered, or you wake up one day to realise that you're hauling around a whole slew of gear and doing property improvements for free to get a humble BF rate sawing logs as you go.