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Please help me buy a Stihl MS461...information request

Started by woodworker9, April 29, 2017, 10:50:24 AM

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woodworker9

I have had a Stihl MS290 with a 20" bar (how it came) for 17 years now.  It has been a great saw for cutting up firewood, and knocking off overgrown branches on my lot with a lot of trees.  However, now that I'm sawmilling a lot (LT40 hydraulic) and getting larger logs, as well as cutting down a bunch of dead trees on the property  (EAB ash and whatever is killing our maples), the 290 is just not enough saw.  I am frequently bogging it down, and I recently had a helluva time taking down a 36" silver maple with it.  It would bind up a lot due to lack of power, and it's just taking too long.

I've been reading a TON of threads here, and am pretty certain that I want to get a MS 461 saw.  From what I've read, it's got all the power I need for bucking up logs for the sawmill, as well as taking down tree's.  I'm presently looking at investing in a 15 to 20 acre wooded property in northern Wisconsin, and would be using it a lot up there as well selectively harvesting trees for a cabin project, as well as the sawmill for wood for inside the cabin.

I want the wraparound handle, and am guessing that means I want the R model....is that correct?  Also, what is the correct chain type that I should be using on it for the type of work ^^^ that I've described.  I'm pretty sure that I want a 25"or 28" bar for it, as most of the time, I'm cutting larger hardwood logs.  I will still use the MS290 for limbing, etc.....around the property, and on firewood  (I heat my shop with wood) when it's appropriately matched.

I'm just learning about the different types of chains, and I know that the green dot is slow as molasses, the yellow dot is faster (what I've been using) and I've read about a skip-tooth (?) or maybe a different name (not too sure) for really fast cutting.  What do you guys recommend for a guy like me who is not cutting every day all day long, but when I do cut, I want to get finished in a reasonable time.  I'm a big, strong guy at 6'2", 270 lbs., ex hockey and football jock who works hard for a living every single day, so I'm not too concerned about the weight or handling the saw safely, other than a strong desire to do so.

I learn everything I know from reading this forum on sawmilling, and on chainsaw use, and value the opinions of you guys here more than anywhere else, including my local dealers.  Around here, in northwest Chicago suburbs, chainsaws aren't a hot ticket item for the local dealers.  I recently walked into the Ace Hardware (sadly, one of my 2 local choices) and the kid who was the "chainsaw guy" didn't even know what a MS290 was....he had to go look it up.  That's what I'm up against.

Also, if anybody here knows of, or has, a great deal on a MS461 with a wrap around handle, I'd love to know about it.  I'm ready to buy NOW.  I've got a bunch of 30" logs out back that need attending to..... :D :D

As always, thanks for your valuable input.

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

khntr85

Hello sir...I am not an expert like most of these guys...I tell ya I researched for a long time and finally got a ms461, I tell you I could NOT be happier....I use a 25" bar mostly and it can't be slowed down in any hardwood here in Indiana...I got the saw new and It got stronger with each tank of fuel ran threw it...I don't have the wrap handle version, the handle can get in the way when stumping a tree....

  I cut some silver maple a few weeks ago at my dads and I bet it would have ran a 32" in that soft wood with no problem....

I have heard guys say that the 461 will pull a 32" skip chain in hard wood ok when needed, I haven't tried it, so maybe someone else can speak on that...

Hopefully you can find a good deal on a used one, but if you buy new, it will serve you well....it will be a HUGE step up from the ms290, I promise you that!!!

woodworker9

Thanks for your reply.  The only used ones I've seen (two) that aren't beat-to-snot looking are priced at the same price as new ones on a Clist add about 4 hours north of me.  That makes no sense to me at all.  I sent an email inquiry to the seller, but he never responded.

I'd like to find a used one, as long as it's seen limited use and is in great condition.  Otherwise, I'd prefer to cry once and know what I'm getting.  I've learned over 30 years in woodworking business that it's better to cry once and get top quality tools.

Good point on the wraparound handle.  I suppose I can always get the different handle later if necessary.  My dealer tells me it's only $50.

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

sandsawmill14

it would be good to drive a little farther to find a dealer that stocks saws that size and would know a little about them :) at least it would be for me  :) but if that is not possible just have them order you one you wont be disappointed with the 461 ;) :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

WoodBurner19

Hi, I did all my research on here before I bought my MS461  It's one hell of a saw & the more fuel you run thru it, the better it runs! Got mine at my local Stihl dealer here in NJ with a 20" b/c. Paid $950 for it with b/c.  I only have 5 acres.  My purpose for the saw is for bucking up firewood. But I am currently building a quad track for my girls to ride their quads. Gonna be taken doe a few trees. Good Luck & let us know how you made out.
Buy it!! Buy it!! You'll love it!!
MS 270 C   MS 461,  Remodeling Contractor, Married, 2 kids, 2004 Dodge Deisel, 2013 4X4 KingQuad, Stihl saws, 35 ton 4way Splitter.

Ed

Yes, the "R" is for the wrap handle, when I put one on my 046 it was way north of $50......I would order the saw with it.

As for chain, if your going to use Stihl, rapid super is what you want.

Ed

woodworker9

I found another local dealer in my town after checking with the Stihl website.  I am glad to not buy it from "Ace Hardware" where they know nothing about the product they represent.  I spoke to the other dealer this weekend, in person, and he knows his stuff.  He's got one in stock, and is checking on a price break for me with his distributor tomorrow.  I'll know more then.  I will buy it from him, as he was courteous, knowledgeable, and professional. 

I'll report back after I have it.  Thanks for the help.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

TKehl

Glad you found another shop.  A saw shop that specializes in outdoor products is not even a contest versus ACE etc.

Stihl saws depreciated like other high quality items that are maintained.  IE not very much or very fast.  It's all I run.

My only other addition is skip tooth chain has fewer cutters on it.  Useful to keep chain speed up and avoid bog down on a long bar. 
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

woodworker9

Thanks.  He carries "yellow dot" chains, and this is what the saw will come with.  I've been using them on my MS290, and notice that they are much faster cutting than the green dot chains.

I've never used the other chains mentioned here, so I cannot compare.  Once again, I'm not a logger, and I'm not trying to win a race.  I think I'll be fine with the yellow dot chains, but we will see as we go.  If I have a problem arise, I will certainly come to this forum for assistance and learning.

Still waiting to hear back from him.....so no saw yet.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

hedgerow

We were on vacation out west three years ago and stopped in at Madsens. I had planned on buying a big saw while I was their. I have a Solo 694 that I run a 36 inch bar to cut big locust down. Just always thought I wanted a big Stihl. They talked me out of a big saw and into a 461 with the wrap around handle. I have a friend that buck most of my 15 cord I cut and split a year and you can't get that 461 out of his hands. We run a 24 inch bar on that saw and it just loves locust and hedge. You will like that saw. Have fun with it.

mad murdock

Check also with forum sponsor Chainsawr.com you may find a good used saw from them. They also have many many parts for older saws. Great resource!
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

chep

I run a chainsaw for my living. I log and do tree work. The 461 is my favorite go to saw under most conditions. I recently added a 661 to my quiver and is amazing for big timber but a boat anchor otherwise.
My comment is on the full wrap handlebar. Don't bother. Unless u cut on crazy hillsides and can't maneuver around your trees it is a useless addition. It's hard to low stump valuable hardwood. It gets caught on brush and on the snow in the winter. The only times I used it was limbing and then the saw always seemed like it was in an unsafe position.
I'm sure others feel different, just my 2 cents of experience.
The 461 is an awesome saw!

woodworker9

I bought it late yesterday.  Can't wait to use it tomorrow, taking down some big maples and a couple of ash trees......all standing dead (ash) or dying (maples).

Thanks for everybody's input.

BTW, the $100 advertisement at the top of this page for Stihl.....the dealer's distribution representative was on the phone right in front of me, and he never heard of it.  Anybody know the skinny on that?  It may be too late, but I'd sure like to get my $100 to put towards gear if I can......
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

woodworker9

All I can say is WOW!  I'm impressed.  I haven't put it to hard work yet, but I just cleaned up a 34" ash stump that I cut down last fall, to level it off.  It was an ugly cut, before I learned how to do it properly here.  The 461 ate through it like butter in no time. 

The speed and power difference between this saw and my MS290 was immense.  I expected it to be better, but I'm just very happy with my purchase right now.

Thanks again for the help.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

khntr85

Quote from: hedgerow on May 01, 2017, 07:56:29 PM
We were on vacation out west three years ago and stopped in at Madsens. I had planned on buying a big saw while I was their. I have a Solo 694 that I run a 36 inch bar to cut big locust down. Just always thought I wanted a big Stihl. They talked me out of a big saw and into a 461 with the wrap around handle. I have a friend that buck most of my 15 cord I cut and split a year and you can't get that 461 out of his hands. We run a 24 inch bar on that saw and it just loves locust and hedge. You will like that saw. Have fun with it.
Wow that says a lot if madsens has faith in a saw!!

I know I love mine!!!

khntr85

Quote from: woodworker9 on May 03, 2017, 01:05:51 PM
All I can say is WOW!  I'm impressed.  I haven't put it to hard work yet, but I just cleaned up a 34" ash stump that I cut down last fall, to level it off.  It was an ugly cut, before I learned how to do it properly here.  The 461 ate through it like butter in no time. 

The speed and power difference between this saw and my MS290 was immense.  I expected it to be better, but I'm just very happy with my purchase right now.

Thanks again for the help.
Wait til you run 20-tanks of fuel threw that saw, the compression will go up and it will get stronger!!

joe_indi

'Magnumise' it and you will have all the saw you will need for a long long time.
Joe

Ed

What Joe said......did a factory dual port conversion on a 460 for a friend a while back, went from a good strong saw to unreal.

Had a hard time believing it myself.

Ed

teakwood

What does a factory dual port conversion mean??  are they any Oem dual port mufflers you can buy? i need to port my new 361
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

HolmenTree

A friend of mine had a MS460 with a factory dual outlet muffler.

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

woodworker9

I don't think I need to make a race saw out of this saw, but thanks for the suggestion.  I'm not in that big of a hurry.  I love the saw, and it has all the power I was hoping it would have.  I'm not working in the forest like a lot of you pro's are.  I'm cutting larger hardwood logs to get them ready for the sawmill. 
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

joe_indi

No, it's not to make yourself a race saw. The dual port and a bigger jet only makes your saw breathe better and helps deliver the power/torque over a wider rpm range. It improves the mid range also. The result is the saw would not need to scream at hi revs to deliver power. Plus power drop in the cut is reduced considerably

sandsawmill14

if you like how it runs dont touch it ;)  no matter how much power it has it has got to run at wot or the engine will get hot it has to have the speed to pull air across the cooling fins to cool it down :)
if it aint broke dont try to fix it ;D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

woodworker9

Fear not, fella's.  My 461 hasn't even finished it's first beer yet!  It's still got a half tank left from it's first fill up.  I've got a ways to go before I even know what's what.  So far, it kicks the crap out of 290, as it should.  That's why I bought it.

Maybe some day, Joe, but not today.... :)
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

ehp

Leave your 461 alone , the dual port does not help as much on the 461 as it does on the 046/460 , dyno proved that . the 461 is a totally different design on the ports compared to the 046/460 , now saying this all my 461's run dual port covers but their ported and I open the dual port hole up a lot . And also if your going to have your 461 ported send it to someone that knows what their doing , that design takes some thinking to make big power from and a huge amount of porting but they can be made to be very strong saws with big  torque

khntr85

I ordered a dual port just to try on my stock 461......I have read were it doesn't help much....I guess if it just cuts down on some heat it would be worth it???

Tony01

Had my MS461 for 12 months from brand new here in Australia till it needed a full rebuild since it was rebuilt I can say the power has died in the backside forever bogging down and now having to put pressure for it to cut quickly as from new I was hanging off it as it wanted to pull the chain and myself through the log I regret getting it rebuilt and should have just traded in the saw is nothing but a canoe anchor now :(

PNWRusty

Quote from: Tony01 on July 08, 2017, 02:01:44 AM
Had my MS461 for 12 months from brand new here in Australia till it needed a full rebuild

Why did such a new saw need a full rebuild?

khntr85

Quote from: Tony01 on July 08, 2017, 02:01:44 AM
Had my MS461 for 12 months from brand new here in Australia till it needed a full rebuild since it was rebuilt I can say the power has died in the backside forever bogging down and now having to put pressure for it to cut quickly as from new I was hanging off it as it wanted to pull the chain and myself through the log I regret getting it rebuilt and should have just traded in the saw is nothing but a canoe anchor now :(

What happened to the saw that required a rebuild??

Tony01

had a rattle in the big end and score on the piston and bore the dealer says it was from using a 8 tooth sprocket when from factory it had a 7 tooth sprocket it has never been the same,,,,,, they replaced only the piston and honed the bore which i recond they should have replaced as now the compression will be down a little they say it wont effect the compression but the saw did cut 450 tonne of iron bark and yellow box Australian hard wood

PNWRusty

Quote from: Tony01 on July 09, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
had a rattle in the big end and score on the piston and bore the dealer says it was from using a 8 tooth sprocket when from factory it had a 7 tooth sprocket it has never been the same,,,,,, they replaced only the piston and honed the bore which i recond they should have replaced as now the compression will be down a little they say it wont effect the compression but the saw did cut 450 tonne of iron bark and yellow box Australian hard wood

Sounds more like pre-detonation from old gas or maybe accidently run with without oil. But absolutely silly to blame it on an 8 tooth sprocket! When these saws die early it's almost always human error (and I'm not going to include choosing an 8 tooth sprocket as human error).

joe_indi

Quote from: Tony01 on July 09, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
had a rattle in the big end and score on the piston and bore the dealer says it was from using a 8 tooth sprocket when from factory it had a 7 tooth sprocket .......
:o
Here I replace the 7 tooth rim with the 8 tooth rim to prevent big end burn outs.
Maybe in your part of the woods the 461 behaves differently, but here the big ends burn out from Under load that is going full rev with blunt chains.
The standard bar size here is 18" with full chisel chains.
So, I replace the stock 7T rims with the optional 8T rims.
In many cases I also replace the stock ignition module (it has ignition timing advance) with the module from the 460 (no ignition timing advance).
If the owner cannot afford a coil replacement, I use a mini hacksaw to trim off the third pole of the module (it controls the timing advance)
But after that you will need to tune from scratch with the limiter caps removed.
And remove some of the restriction of the muffler exit hole (enlarge it to old 460 dimension)
The end result is a fantastic saw that runs like a 460 but with a helluva lot of torque
My 'Guinea Pig' 461 even handles a 16" Duromatic guidebar running a 46RS chain, something that would kill a 460

Tony01

Quote from: PNWRusty on July 09, 2017, 11:07:05 AM
Quote from: Tony01 on July 09, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
had a rattle in the big end and score on the piston and bore the dealer says it was from using a 8 tooth sprocket when from factory it had a 7 tooth sprocket it has never been the same,,,,,, they replaced only the piston and honed the bore which i recond they should have replaced as now the compression will be down a little they say it wont effect the compression but the saw did cut 450 tonne of iron bark and yellow box Australian hard wood

Sounds more like pre-detonation from old gas or maybe accidently run with without oil. But absolutely silly to blame it on an 8 tooth sprocket! When these saws die early it's almost always human error (and I'm not going to include choosing an 8 tooth sprocket as human error).

that is something i am really picky with as the saw is my livelyhood   "no saw no income" even through the hot summer months i run 36/1 mix in all my saws 390 husky out performs the 461 after the rebuild but before the rebuild the sthyl 461 was eating the husky to the point i was about to sell it and buy another 461 the score on the bore they say is usual for a saw that has cut that amount of wood in that period of time "450 tonne cut into 400ml lenghts all by saw"

Tony01

Quote from: joe_indi on July 10, 2017, 01:34:49 AM
Quote from: Tony01 on July 09, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
had a rattle in the big end and score on the piston and bore the dealer says it was from using a 8 tooth sprocket when from factory it had a 7 tooth sprocket .......
:o
Here I replace the 7 tooth rim with the 8 tooth rim to prevent big end burn outs.
Maybe in your part of the woods the 461 behaves differently, but here the big ends burn out from Under load that is going full rev with blunt chains.
The standard bar size here is 18" with full chisel chains.
So, I replace the stock 7T rims with the optional 8T rims.
In many cases I also replace the stock ignition module (it has ignition timing advance) with the module from the 460 (no ignition timing advance).
If the owner cannot afford a coil replacement, I use a mini hacksaw to trim off the third pole of the module (it controls the timing advance)
But after that you will need to tune from scratch with the limiter caps removed.
And remove some of the restriction of the muffler exit hole (enlarge it to old 460 dimension)
The end result is a fantastic saw that runs like a 460 but with a helluva lot of torque
My 'Guinea Pig' 461 even handles a 16" Duromatic guidebar running a 46RS chain, something that would kill a 460

here standard bar is 20" with full chisel chain  on the other notes could you send me a pm of the module part numbers and info on the mods as if it helps this saw perform i am all up for it cheers in advance Tony

joe_indi

There is nothing much to pm about.
All that you would need are the following:
Muffler try the Magnum # 1128 140 0616
Ignition module # 1122 400 1314
You will need to pull out the limiter caps on the carb to re-tune both L and H after you have the above muffler and ignition module fitted
You could use these images from my gallery to guide you on getting the limiter caps out.








Tony01

thank you first thing in the morning down to the shop to order these in and yes the pictures are a great help  :laugh: ;D

PNWRusty

Quote from: Tony01 on July 10, 2017, 04:21:56 AM
that is something i am really picky with as the saw is my livelyhood   "no saw no income" even through the hot summer months i run 36/1 mix in all my saws 390 husky out performs the 461 after the rebuild but before the rebuild the sthyl 461 was eating the husky to the point i was about to sell it and buy another 461

Was the big end bearing replaced (or what caused the rattle in the big end)? If the big end bearing was shot, it's normal for there to be a little scoring. I disagree that cutting a lot of wood results in scoring. Scoring is caused by specific things or failure of other parts.

A lot of guys run extra oil in their saws figuring "if a little is good, more must be better, right?"

This is misguided (yes, it is possible to "love" your saw too much). Oil lowers the octane rating of the fuel mix. Adding extra oil can lower the octane too much. It also is known to cause additional carbon buildup. Carbon buildup can increase the compression. Both conditions can lead to detonation, and even more so if the engine is run a little lean. Octane also decreases when fuel ages. Detonation destroys big ends and leads to scoring of the cylinder. A 36:1 fuel/oil mix is not going to prevent damage from detonation, it just makes detonation more likely.

Regardless of whether your recent trouble was caused by detonation, I recommend you run 50:1 synthetic oil and keep the mix fresh. 

barbender

Too many irons in the fire

PNWRusty

Quote from: barbender on July 12, 2017, 09:20:52 PM
How does more oil lower the octane rating?

The simple answer is that oil has a lower octane rating than gasoline. The more you add, the easier the mixture will detonate. I've seen, as a rough estimate, a 1 point octane drop for each percent of oil added. But octane rating is complicated business and is not straightforward at all. If you want to know more about the complicated chemistry of octane, this is a good link:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360128516300570#bbib0177

To compound the octane lowering problem, oil dilutes the fuel which leans the engine (if not tuned for the higher oil content). If you want to know what the experts at Madsens say on the subject of pre-mix for pro saws, this is a good link:

http://www.madsens1.com/saw_fuelmix.htm

The experts at Madsens Saw and Supply have torn down, rebuilt and repaired thousands of saws for PNW loggers over many years and have seen the damaging results of too much oil.

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