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Sawing on shares problem has arisen

Started by 4x4American, April 26, 2017, 09:10:35 PM

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4x4American

I have a friend who runs one of the top 3 biggest producing mechanized logging companies around here that I agreed to cut some of his logs on the shares in turn for nice oak and black locust logs.  I told him I cut on the shares on a 60/40 basis, for every 40 bf of logs I saw for you, I get 60bf in turn.  He sent me a tri-axle load a few weeks ago, and he's getting to the point where he is gonna have a load for me soon.  He said he's sending out one more load of locust to his buyer and the rest is mine...red flag there I said so what you're gonna just save me the garbage that's left over?  He said no, but I have my doubts.  Anyways, I said that if he sent me a truck and pup that'd be good with me in turn for sawing, I would call that 60/40.  And then he said he would call his friend who has a self loader, and let me know what he would charge me.  I said whoah whoah whoah...why should I pay for the trucking, this is in turn for sawing your logs!  I said that if I had to pay for trucking then I want two truck and pup loads.  And I can't really remember where the conversation went but we argued back and forth for a while and we still haven't settled the debate.  I want to remain on good terms with him and I want it to be fair for both of us.  His logs are white cedar, and some of the knottiest pine and hemlock I've ever seen.


So I'm asking the jury: who should pay for trucking? 
Boy, back in my day..

dgdrls

Quote from: 4x4American on April 26, 2017, 09:10:35 PM
I have a friend who runs one of the top 3 biggest producing mechanized logging companies around here that I agreed to cut some of his logs on the shares in turn for nice oak and black locust logs.  I told him I cut on the shares on a 60/40 basis, for every 40 bf of logs I saw for you, I get 60bf in turn.  He sent me a tri-axle load a few weeks ago, and he's getting to the point where he is gonna have a load for me soon.  He said he's sending out one more load of locust to his buyer and the rest is mine...red flag there I said so what you're gonna just save me the garbage that's left over?  He said no, but I have my doubts.  Anyways, I said that if he sent me a truck and pup that'd be good with me in turn for sawing, I would call that 60/40.  And then he said he would call his friend who has a self loader, and let me know what he would charge me.  I said whoah whoah whoah...why should I pay for the trucking, this is in turn for sawing your logs!  I said that if I had to pay for trucking then I want two truck and pup loads.  And I can't really remember where the conversation went but we argued back and forth for a while and we still haven't settled the debate.  I want to remain on good terms with him and I want it to be fair for both of us.  His logs are white cedar, and some of the knottiest pine and hemlock I've ever seen.


So I'm asking the jury: who should pay for trucking?


Who paid for the last load?

D

sealark37

Your pal has already decided who will come out on the best end of the deal.

4x4American

His friend brought this load out, so it was on him, but he wants me to saw all the logs on this load for him, and then he was gonna pay me with oak and locust logs. 
Boy, back in my day..

4x4American

Quote from: sealark37 on April 26, 2017, 09:24:30 PM
Your pal has already decided who will come out on the best end of the deal.


It ain't over til the fat lady licks the sawdust off the floor..or however that saying goes
Boy, back in my day..

Magicman

If you have not sawed his share yet then the ball is still in your park.  No sawing until your share is stacked and you are satisfied that you have your 60%.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

4x4American

Quote from: Magicman on April 26, 2017, 09:33:49 PM
If you have not sawed his share yet then the ball is still in your park.  No sawing until your share is stacked and you are satisfied that you have your 60%.


For sure.  But am I responsible to get my 60% to the sawmill?  Anytime I've sawed on the shares, they bring me the logs.  It just doesn't make sense to me otherwise, so I've never done it that way. 
Boy, back in my day..

Ricker

My thought would be he pays.  He is paying you with logs instead of cash. If it was cash would he expect you to go to his house to get paid?  That said, if it was me and I wanted to keep the friend I would offer to split the trucking bill since we didn't work it out before his load was dropped at the mill. You are supposed to get nice oak and black locust logs for yourself. Shouldn't hurt you too bad...

4x4American

Quote from: Ricker on April 26, 2017, 09:42:50 PM
My thought would be he pays.  He is paying you with logs instead of cash. If it was cash would he expect you to go to his house to get paid?  That said, if it was me and I wanted to keep the friend I would offer to split the trucking bill since we didn't work it out before his load was dropped at the mill. You are supposed to get nice oak and black locust logs for yourself. Shouldn't hurt you too bad...


You, sir, sound like a very reasonable man.  hashtag thumbsupsmiley
Boy, back in my day..

Magicman

But nothing gets sawed or leaves your yard until you are satisfied.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

KirkD

Quote from: Ricker on April 26, 2017, 09:42:50 PM
My thought would be he pays.  He is paying you with logs instead of cash. If it was cash would he expect you to go to his house to get paid?  That said, if it was me and I wanted to keep the friend I would offer to split the trucking bill since we didn't work it out before his load was dropped at the mill. You are supposed to get nice oak and black locust logs for yourself. Shouldn't hurt you too bad...
Easy to say when it is not your money or lumber... I go with what MM said.
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

Peter Drouin

No more cutting on shares. see what you get. ::) ::)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Brad_bb

Friends has got nothing to do with it.  This is business.  Were the terms clear?  There was a precedent set by him getting the last load to you.  You were not responsible for that.  It sounds like the split was determined with the assumption that the logs be delivered to you.  In other words, seems pretty implicit that he "supplies" the logs and then you saw on shares.  I agree that in order to pay you in logs, he has to bring them to you. 
If he can't see that, split what you've sawn and let that be the end of it.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

red

He owes you for fuel, blades, a helper/laborer, storage, waste removal. . . etc . . not going to happen
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

4x4American

I'm a little worried, he cuts pulpwood, so his idea of a nice log and mine are far off.  The guy I sell my pallet lumber to was hurting for logs after getting a ginormous pallet order.  So I hooked these two up.  I picked up the check for my logger friend since I deliver to them each week and brought it to him with a load of lumber I cut for him.  Anyways, the pallet guy told me to tell him that the check was a gift, he was straight up angry about the logs he got, said that they were firewood logs not pallet.  Said he won't buy no more logs from him.  Bright stuff huh
Boy, back in my day..

WV Sawmiller

   I agree - no more sawing till you get paid on site. Since your pay is in logs he delivers to your site.

Peter,

   I don't agree just because of a couple of hiccups. 4X4 needs logs, his "partner" needs sawing. Just need to make sure when you make such a deal you work out these kind of details. If its an honest mistake renegotiate until both parties are satisfied to get past this hurdle and come up with a different plan next time, if necessary and you both want to continue this deal.

4X4,

   I would establish a value for the sawing and for the logs and if either party falls short the other makes up the difference in cash.  And it sounds like you need to clearly define the grade of the logs based on your last comment.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

4x4American

Quote from: Brad_bb on April 26, 2017, 10:01:15 PM
Friends has got nothing to do with it.  This is business.  Were the terms clear?  There was a precedent set by him getting the last load to you.  You were not responsible for that.  It sounds like the split was determined with the assumption that the logs be delivered to you.  In other words, seems pretty implicit that he "supplies" the logs and then you saw on shares.  I agree that in order to pay you in logs, he has to bring them to you. 
If he can't see that, split what you've sawn and let that be the end of it.


It was all just talking on the phone and in person, nothing in writing.  I just thought it was completely obvious that he delivers me the payment logs.  And he probably thought either he was gonna get one over on me, or, that it only made sense it was my responsibility to pay trucking, cause they were my logs.  He's not paying stumpage either.  He did like 20-30 acres of clear cutting brush and junk and in turn got 80 acres of good timber to do what he wants with.  And his answer to that was I'm making much more money selling a finished product, blah blah blah, we carried on for awhile and left it up in the air
Boy, back in my day..

4x4American

I haven't touched his logs they still sit where they lie from when they were delivered.  He has some high value big ole white cedar in there that alot of people are asking about.  One if my repeater customers said he's going to be placing an order for doug fir and cedar to build a tree house for his son soon.  Plus I have a window maker I know who would buy the cedar.  So if it came down to it I'll say hey I'll split these here logs with ya 60/40 and thats what I can do
Boy, back in my day..

redprospector

In my experience, a general understanding is a misunderstanding.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

sandsawmill14

if he is a logger he knows better ;) i would tell him he could deliver your payment (share) or you would saw his logs for cash its up to him :) i wouldnt be hateful or anything but thats how it is  :) i have had a sawmill for 15+ years and have never had to pay trucking for the logs it is included in the log price and if you are sawing for 60/40 you are paying plenty for the logs you mentioned :) if you pay this time you will from now on because it will be you did last time and the other guys will say you payed him for trucking why not me ::) 
if it goes bad just tell him you will saw for cash by the bdft, you will buy his logs or he can come get them :) i know you need logs but you only need logs if you can make money on them :) thats why i havent sawed a log since feb ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Brad_bb

If I'm understanding correctly, there is another issue.  It sounds like he is picking "his logs" and which will be "your logs".  If they aren't the same quality, that is a problem.  He shouldn't do that.  You should be sawing all the logs, and not sawing any that clearly won't make quality boards, and YOU should be doing the splitting of boards of equal grade.  He doesn't get to have you saw the choicest logs for him and then you only get lower grade stuff. ...if I'm reading it right....60/40 split of the best stuff, and 60/40 split of less than best stuff etc. And if it's too low a grade, you don't have to mill it at all.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

sandsawmill14

Quote from: Brad_bb on April 27, 2017, 07:10:13 AM
If I'm understanding correctly, there is another issue.  It sounds like he is picking "his logs" and which will be "your logs".  If they aren't the same quality, that is a problem.  He shouldn't do that.  You should be sawing all the logs, and not sawing any that clearly won't make quality boards, and YOU should be doing the splitting of boards of equal grade.  He doesn't get to have you saw the choicest logs for him and then you only get lower grade stuff. ...if I'm reading it right....60/40 split of the best stuff, and 60/40 split of less than best stuff etc. And if it's too low a grade, you don't have to mill it at all.
i agree i wouldnt saw a log until my part was on the yard and if its 6" crooked or hollow logs tell him to stick it  ;D  but if he is a friend he surely wont do you that way but if he does...

i told a guy one time i would stand a log on end and he could climb up on the roof take careful aim jump and shove it up his  ;D :o i will let yall guess the last word :D :D :D  but i only act like that when i have decided that i wouldnt take a load of veneer logs for $150 a 1000 and i only know 2 loggers that i am that way about  :) and i am not the only mill they cant sell to ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

WV Sawmiller

   The suggested practice I see for sawing on shares is to divide the logs then flip a coin to see who gets which pile. That helps keep things honest as that both parties know they could get either pile so are real diligent about making both piles as equal as possible in quality and quantity. One problem I see here is you are not making 50/50 splits and he wants one species of log and you want another. I don;t know how you get around this unless you both agree on the value and grade of each species and he provides equal value. May just have to drop back to you buy logs from him and sell him sawing services. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Farmerjw

I feel your pain, used to trade a tree guy beef for wood.  He would drop off a load of wood from a tree job and I would cut and split it for my outdoor boiler.  Because I took the occasional extremely large diameter chunks, that is all he started delivering (skimming the cream for his new firewood business).  No problem for me, we discussed it, couldn't come to an agreement, ended the deal. (I kept telling my wife I should deliver his steer on the hoof at his home, my thought process of where the deal had gone).
Premier Bovine Scatologist

moodnacreek

Man do I understand. When they clean up the landing the garbage goes down the road to that little sawmill to try to finish it off. They said it wouldn't last. The big problem is the politics . I try very hard to only saw MY wood. I am not always liked  for this attitude and I was not raised this way but after all the abuse you react . The cold hard truth is; you have to be shrewd, good luck, Doug

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