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Am I right or wrong about kiln dried Pine?

Started by POSTON WIDEHEAD, April 24, 2017, 10:27:30 AM

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POSTON WIDEHEAD

Down here in the south, most of our Pine structures are built from green Pine or air dried Pine.

I recently resawed some kiln dried cants / beams into lumber.
I was not impressed.....at all.
The structural integrity of the wood seemed to not be there.
I guess a far fetched explanation of what it was like sawing would be I felt I was sawing styro foam. :D

I'm guessing some people kiln dry Pine for furniture, paneling, flooring, ceilings, etc.
But my opinion would be NOT to kiln dry Pine for structural use.

Does Pine lose strength when kiln dried?
I'm guessing yes.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

nativewolf

All stick built timber is kiln dried, a lot of it today is sent to be PT because it is about the easiest way to add value to wood.

I believe you have some plantation timber, look at the end grain, are you seeing 1/2" annual growth rings?  If so you'll have almost all juvenile wood and little darker summer wood in the annual rings and the wood will be dramatically different than an old longleaf or shortleaf pine timer.
Liking Walnut

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: nativewolf on April 24, 2017, 11:04:23 AM
All stick built timber is kiln dried....

Are you talking about stick built "structures" ?  Not sure what you mean by stick built timber.

But not ALL stick built structures are built from kiln dried timber.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Dave Shepard

You guys have those 1/2" growth rings down there too? I thought all that stuff was exported to us Northerners. :D 4x4 mailbox posts that break off about as cleanly across the grain as a carrot. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

moodnacreek

I don't think all doug fir framing lumber is k.d.  Some states don't allow spf lumber for structures. Also a lot of stud lumber is only dried to 20%. Ring count or partially decayed when sawn could be the weakness problem.

Magicman

It was not the drying as such because all graded framing lumber has been kiln dried.  Plantation Pine with those ½" growth rings has virtually no strength and it will also do "bad things" when being sawn.  I avoid it.

Stick built means that it was built "one stick of lumber" at the time, as in conventional building.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

KirkD

I did not know pine had any structure. You never see any pine being used for framing lumber here.
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

Magicman

Take a look at this chart:  LINK  SYP has the strongest Compression Strength, Bending, & Stiffness.

You may not see it due to transportation costs.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kbeitz

Your SYP from down south is a whole lot better and stronger than our
pines from up north. I lived in Ga. for 6 years and I seen the difference.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

YellowHammer

As said, graded pine framing lumber has all been kiln dried.  Different species have different characteristics and the pine I dry has no noticeable change in physical properties. I have to resaw a decent amount of my own KD pine and other than not having sap sprayed on me, I don't notice anything unusual.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Hilltop366

Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity?  Pulp maybe?

Ianab

Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 24, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity?  Pulp maybe?

Pretty much every house in NZ is built from plantation grown Radiata pine. Growth rings can be up to 1" wide. OK it's not the strongest wood in the world, but as long as the structure is engineered with the strength of the material in mind it's fine. Local houses stand up to Mag 7 earthquakes and storms pretty well.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

longtime lurker

Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 24, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity?  Pulp maybe?

It grows fast and saws easy. That makes it cheap. Other then that its got nothing going for it but hey... its got a lot going for it.

Pine is a four letter word.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Bruno of NH

The KD spruce studs we get up here are like balsa wood
They are not that good if I have to buy stud I try to get western hem/fir they are a lot better .
Roof trusses in the north east have a lot of SYP in them because it's stronger than spruce
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

longtime lurker

Was delivering to a customer the other day and we were both admiring a piece of pine framing the guy had dressed, probably some of that NZ stuff.

Wood looked okay for what it was but it had 32 fingerjoints in 4.5. (15')

"Structural Pine" is an oxymoron.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

SineWave

Quote from: Magicman on April 24, 2017, 02:02:09 PM
Take a look at this chart:  LINK  SYP has the strongest Compression Strength, Bending, & Stiffness.

You may not see it due to transportation costs.

I've also heard that loblolly pine (another yellow pine) can be used for structural purposes something like a month after cutting it. I have a pile of it, and I know it dries real straight and stable. I don't think I've ever seen a piece move in drying. I don't think it's as strong as longleaf SYP, but it's pretty darn strong...

http://www.wood-database.com/loblolly-pine/

I've got some old SYP or loblolly in my 125-year-old house and it's harder than cast iron. You couldn't drive a nail into it if your life depended on it. I'd like to use it more than I do, but you also can't get paint to stick to it for more than a year or two...

Magicman

For grading purposes Southern Yellow Pine includes:  longleaf pine, shortleaf pine, slash pine, or loblolly pine, and are all considered equal even though there could be a slight difference in the various strengths.  Consider also that there are differences in these strength characteristics caused by different growing conditions within the same species groups.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kbeitz

Here in Pa. we have

White pine
Scotch pine
Australian pine
Jack pine
Red pine
Virginia pine

That's all I know...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Delawhere Jack

David,.... are you SURE it WASN'T styrofoam?  :D

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

Structural SYP is only kiln dried to 19%. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Don P

The kiln does not weaken or permanently alter the mechanical properties of the lumber. Dry lumber is about twice as "strong" as green. Dimensional lumber... 2-4" thick framing lumber can be green or dried but is usually kiln dried to 19%. There are no prohibitions against using green lumber for framing in any building code, nor is there one against using any species or group of species as long as they are used within their engineering limits. Dougfir is often sold green in the west, due to freight costs it has been quite a few years since I've seen any here in the east. The stamp reads SGRN- surfaced green rather than KD19, kiln dried to 19%.

Pieces with fewer than 4 rings/inch are normally graded out as unusually light. #2 SYP was derated a few years ago after being flagged during an in grade assessment cycle. I simply asked my local lumberyard to keep #1 in stock. Dougfir and SYP are the higher strength species of commercially available lumber. These tests are ongoing, you can keep up with that stuff through the American Lumber Standards Committee, I keep an eye on that through their mailings of minutes. You can see the current design values for many species on the awc.org span calc or in their supplement to the NDS "Design Values for wood construction" a free download.

sealark37

From the carpenters point of view, there is a vast difference between SPF and SYP.  Every factory truss that I have ever seen was built using SYP.   Regards, Clark

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