The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: What settings to kill PPB?  (Read 2364 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Joliet, IL
  • Gender: Male
    • My timberframe blog
What settings to kill PPB?
« on: April 23, 2017, 12:15:38 pm »
I've got some beech 2"x8" barnwood that has some PPB leaving some piles of dust.  Wood is still good but I want kill them.  I found a guy with a Nyle Kiln set up.  What temp does the kiln need to be and for how long to kill the PPB larvae/eggs?  He thinks it needs to be higher temp than what he dries hardwood at.  He doesn't know the temp or how long.  Thanks, Brad_bb
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline armechanic

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • Age: 70
  • Location: Compton, Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2017, 12:30:58 pm »
Call local USDA and know for sure. I have seen all ranges of temp.  You have to get the internal temp of the wood by drilling a hole and installing a probe in a stick of wood that is placed in the center of the load of wood.  I think it is something like 140 degrees for 45 minutes.
1989 Lt 40, D6C CAT, Home made wood processer in progress.

Offline xlogger

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1077
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Bahama, NC
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2017, 12:52:23 pm »
133 and will have to be there and over better for maybe 6 hours for 4/4. I get my kiln at 145
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2045
  • Location: Bishop, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • Author of "Sawing Hardwood Lumber"
    • Book on Sawing hardwood Lumber
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2017, 06:50:38 pm »
133 F is required throughout the entire piece of lumber and this includes every piece.  No time is required, once there.  To achieve this temperature, you will need an air temperature of at least 150F and 160 F is better and faster.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25994
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 08:19:14 pm »
I sterilize at 150 held for 24 hours. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Joliet, IL
  • Gender: Male
    • My timberframe blog
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 12:47:52 am »
WDH - I'm assuming that is what you use for 1x?

So from what people are saying here, it sounds like the internal temp is what is critical.  Where do you get a temperature probe that will install in a board and I assume that you run the wire outside to a meter of some sort?  The guy I'm talking to has a Nyle Kiln that he built.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25994
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 07:27:14 am »
I use 24 hours for 4/4 and 9/4.  I don't measure the internal temp, just hold the air temp at 150 degrees for 24 hours to assure that the wood has enough time to reach 133 internally.  I don't believe that wood is that good of an insulator. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Deese

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Grady, AL
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 10:16:31 am »
I recently posted this pic of red oak logs in the "Whatcha Sawin" thread. They have been on the ground for a while, but I just recently trimmed and sealed the ends, and cut one in half and sealed the two fresh openings immediately.
 

 

I went back yesterday to find what appears to be powder post beetles? boring into the sapwood.
 

 
 

 

What should I do at this point? Trim more off the ends, removing them before they get too deep, reseal with anchorseal, saw into lumber immediately, then treat lumber with  Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate?
Sawed 4 years with EZ Boardwalk Jr 13hp. I now have a 2004 LT40HDD51. Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener, Cooks Single Tooth Setter, a bunch of chainsaws, and an old chocolate lab.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25994
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 08:00:30 pm »
It is ambrosia beetles, probably hatching out and leaving the log.  They will exit the lumber once it begins to dry.  They cannot live in drying and dry wood.  Nothing you can do about them.  They will leave on their own accord and are not an issue like powderpost beetles.  Once you say the lumber, though, you might want to spray with borate, not because of the ambrosia beetles but, instead, to prevent powderpost beetle infestation once the lumber is air dried. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2045
  • Location: Bishop, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • Author of "Sawing Hardwood Lumber"
    • Book on Sawing hardwood Lumber
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 10:31:33 pm »
I agree with the diagnosis of ambrosia beetles.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline Deese

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Grady, AL
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2017, 11:28:07 pm »
WDH and Mr Gene, that's music to my ears. Thank you both for your input.  8)
Sawed 4 years with EZ Boardwalk Jr 13hp. I now have a 2004 LT40HDD51. Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener, Cooks Single Tooth Setter, a bunch of chainsaws, and an old chocolate lab.

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2402
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • There's a lot more to it.
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 07:09:09 pm »
When I have had them that bad, I will saw the sapwood off the log and burn it.  The reason being I have lost a good deal of lumber by sticking and drying ambrosia beetle infested wood.  If boards are stickered, especially with solid stickers, and the critters try to leave the sapwood and hit a sticker, they will keep boring.  So then the sticker is potentially infested.  However, the beetle will keep boring until it emerges, and if it has to go through another board, on the other side of the sticker, it will.  So now there will be holes in lots of boards, many in a nice, neat row inline where the stickers were. 

I have sprayed which does kill them, but even if one or two makes a hole in another board, then I can't sell it.  Since I don't like selling wood with any chemicals on it, I prefer to slab deep and throw them into the fire.....

If you look close, you should see that their antenna have little bulbs on them.   Here's a picture I took several years ago.






Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline Deese

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Grady, AL
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2017, 07:45:12 pm »
Thanks YH,
Its going to be at least 2 weeks before I saw them.
I'll probably swing by there tomorrow and take a close look at them just for kicks. However, I did witness 3 of them crawl out of the same hole, all carrying a small beverage and it appeared they were dancing and having a good'ole time. Must be a party in there somewhere. In all seriousness I've decided to quartersaw these and see what happens as they dry.
Sawed 4 years with EZ Boardwalk Jr 13hp. I now have a 2004 LT40HDD51. Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener, Cooks Single Tooth Setter, a bunch of chainsaws, and an old chocolate lab.

Offline Deese

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Grady, AL
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 07:46:49 pm »
Couldn't determine what brand...just too small.
Sawed 4 years with EZ Boardwalk Jr 13hp. I now have a 2004 LT40HDD51. Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener, Cooks Single Tooth Setter, a bunch of chainsaws, and an old chocolate lab.

Offline flatrock58

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Carrollton Ga
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 09:44:46 am »
Yellowhammer.  Are you saying you can't sell oak that has ambrosia beetle holes in it or it just sells for a lot less?
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Piney Woods modified Dual tooth setter.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25994
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 10:25:30 am »
They ruin the high grade stuff but add to the value of the rustic stuff  :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Tree Dan

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Age: 61
  • Location: N/W Ontario
  • Gender: Male
  • I may be In Canada but my heart Is also In the U.S
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 06:50:41 pm »
Would the same temp apply to killing ants, or a slightly lower temp?
Wood Mizer LT40HD, Kubota KX71, New Holland LS150, Case TR270
6400 John Deere/with loader,General 20" planer, Stihl 880, Stihl 361, Dolmar 460, Husqvarna 50  and a few shovels,
60" and 30" Log Rite cant hooks, 2 home built Tree Spades, Homemade log splitter

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2402
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • There's a lot more to it.
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 11:24:30 pm »
Would the same temp apply to killing ants, or a slightly lower temp?

Ants, especially the big black carpenter ants, are tough, they will just feel frisky at lower temps.  150 F for 24 hours will kill them. 

Yellowhammer.  Are you saying you can't sell oak that has ambrosia beetle holes in it or it just sells for a lot less?

Soapbox time, I apologize in advance for the long post.  I will also refer to wood eating insects of any species simply as bugs, because that is what the general wood buying public, who doesn't know the difference between an ambrosia beetle and a flying ant, thinks of them.  Bugs is bugs.

People who buy wood don't know and don't care what makes the holes, a bug is a bug is a bug.  To the public, bugs in wood are bad, and bug holes in wood that isn't supposed to have bug holes is very bad, as all bug holes are caused by the dreaded PPB or termite, whether or not they actually were, as far as the general public is concerned.  It's also common knowlwdge that PPBs and termites destroy barns and houses, can spread like wildfire, and everybody who is a woodworker knows someone, or knows someone who knows someone, who has unwittingly infected their house, favorite furniture or wood supply with bugs carried in on improperly sterilized lumber. 

Nobody who buys high grade clear wood will tolerate bug holes, if that style of wood isn't supposed to have any.  You might as well be trying to sell moldy hamburger. In fact, most customers are very intolerant of it and react badly to it.  If somebody sees high grade wood, especially oak, with bug holes, they will not buy it.  If they buy it and don't see the holes until later, and they don't know if the bugs are active or not, the BEST case scenario is that they will return the board in exchange for another.  The worst case scenario is much worse, trust me.

If the high grade is dropped to low grade due to the bug holes, and sold as such, even with the buyer fully aware, then when other people see the wood they will also see the bug holes, causing people to associate the bug wood with who sold it, again causing bad publicity.  We get customers from other local mills who tell us they will never go back again because "they" sell bug wood, which is similar, in the customers minds as selling wood that my contain a hidden hand grenade or Ebola virus.  So bug holes in high grade clear lumber is intolerable.  If I can't trim the holes out, the wood gets burned, no questions asked. I will not sell a high grade board that has a single bug hole in it, even if it's acceptable practice.  I speak from painful and costly experience on this. 
 
If the wood is spalted, ambrosia, pine borer or other wood that has bugs as a general public knowledge, then it can be sold, with full disclosure to the customer who therefore understands that the characteristic of the wood that makes it look unique were caused by bugs, and since the boards were properly sterilized, the bugs are dead.  So no problem, sometimes. 

I did have a case where I sold some bug hole pine to a guy who later told me, in a matter of fact way, that my wood had ants in it.  Upon questioning, we figured out he had placed the wood near a fire ant pile outside his garage and he jumped to the conclusion that the ants originated from the holes in the wood.

In order to combat bugs, we buy fresh logs, and inspect them for frass.  We mill them quickly and don't let them sit around.  We routinely clean up our logyard, scrape the sawdust and bark down to the dirt, and burn everything else.  If we cut into a log that has bugs, we excise that piece of wood and burn it.  We salvage the rest of the log, if possible.  When we custom saw for other people, their logs are inspected and if showing harmful bugs, we don't accept them.  Either way, we segregate customer logs from our logs, to keep down possible cross contamination.  That has happened to us, and it was ugly.

I have lost more money to bugs devaluing and destroying wood than to any other single cause, and we have learned to react to them with extreme measures. 



Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline jaciausa

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Location: Iowa
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 02:04:10 am »
This has to be the only valuable "Soap" I will learn from! Thanks for sharing,

Offline flatrock58

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Carrollton Ga
  • Gender: Male
Re: What settings to kill PPB?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 08:27:27 am »
Yellowhammer.  Thanks for the insight.  I have only sold some beetle killed pine so far.  Mostly been cutting for myself.  I was given several red and white oak trees that were down maybe a year.  A lot of the wood has some ambrosia beetle holes in it.  Was planning to use it for my project and maybe sell some too.  I guess I can sell it as rustic wood.  Some is really nice quartersawn. 
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Piney Woods modified Dual tooth setter.