The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills



The Largest Inventory of Used Chainsaw Parts in the World

Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools


Forest Products Industry Insurance

Norwood Industries Inc.

Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL

Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth  (Read 2003 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Crusarius

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Canadice, New York
  • Gender: Male
  • Lost in....
    • RockModified.com
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2017, 01:12:09 pm »
Automotive style spring loaded belt tensioner. Probably be able to fab a bracket and bolt it on.
I knew what I thought I meant.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2017, 01:20:26 pm »
Automotive style spring loaded belt tensioner. Probably be able to fab a bracket and bolt it on.

Good idea, I had thought the same thing, not sure why Woodmaster doesn't have a better setup for tensioning the belts.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2017, 01:30:55 pm »
Increasing belt tension may work but its a band-aid. 

The root cause of slippage is the arbor pulley is to small.  A 3 HP cabinet saw or planer uses around the same size with three belts. 

If it were me, I would change out the pulleys to a size similar to what's on the arbors I pictured.  Than I would run BX (cogged) belts. 

Another idea.  If those belts on your machine are standard belts a change to cogged belts would help and you might not need bigger pulleys.

Larry, I was just researching cogged belts.. :D :)  Yep, my 3hp planer has three belts - not sure why this machine doesn't. That's also one of the first things that a fellow woodworker/friend said when I was showing him the unit.  I would not have known that the arbor pulley is too small, thanks for your input.  The only thing about going to a bigger pulley is that would slow the saw blades down unless I went with a bigger motor pulley as well (I think).  I have no idea how much that would affect the rip saw performance.  I will measure both pulleys to get the diameters.

Thanks all for the great input!

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2017, 01:33:21 pm »
I forgot to mention the stock belts are standard (smooth) so I think first course of action would be to get cogged belts.

Offline 21incher

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Marion, NY
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2017, 04:58:48 pm »
Gates says a single v belt with a 3 inch minimum pulley diameter can transmit 2.2 HP. A bigger pulley with more wrap will allow much more and a smaller one will transmit less. It looks like with 10 Hp and a small pulley you may need 4 matched v belts for 10 HP using standard belts. :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, and a logrite cant hook.

Offline Just Me

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Upper-lower Michigan=Troll
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2017, 05:00:03 pm »
Increasing belt tension may work but its a band-aid. 

The root cause of slippage is the arbor pulley is to small.  A 3 HP cabinet saw or planer uses around the same size with three belts. 

If it were me, I would change out the pulleys to a size similar to what's on the arbors I pictured.  Than I would run BX (cogged) belts. 

Another idea.  If those belts on your machine are standard belts a change to cogged belts would help and you might not need bigger pulleys.

Larry, I was just researching cogged belts.. :D :)  Yep, my 3hp planer has three belts - not sure why this machine doesn't. That's also one of the first things that a fellow woodworker/friend said when I was showing him the unit.  I would not have known that the arbor pulley is too small, thanks for your input.  The only thing about going to a bigger pulley is that would slow the saw blades down unless I went with a bigger motor pulley as well (I think).  I have no idea how much that would affect the rip saw performance.  I will measure both pulleys to get the diameters.

Thanks all for the great input!

If you went to a bigger pulley on the final drive side you would indeed have to go to a bigger pulley on the motor side to keep the same tooth speed. Upside is more belt wrap so better traction.

Nice  table. I use that stuff a lot.

Here is a thought. How far below the table are the blades going, and on the original setup could it get rid of shavings out the bottom of the cut? I'm just wondering if the blades were cutting at a more severe angle out the bottom of the cut if it would not take a lot less power. Know what I mean? If you drop the blades down the saw tooth is in the cut for less time and so has less work to do before ejecting its shavings. Maybe a little less cut quality, but it may conserve some power. Just thinking out loud.

I went out and looked at mine, it is a Belsaw so not the same.

Here is who I use for belt sets. they are always perfect with no vibration inducing lumps, always have what I need even for the Euro machines.    http://www.optibelt.com/en/power-transmission/products.html

Offline Just Me

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Upper-lower Michigan=Troll
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2017, 05:11:45 pm »
Gates says a single v belt with a 3 inch minimum pulley diameter can transmit 2.2 HP. A bigger pulley with more wrap will allow much more and a smaller one will transmit less. It looks like with 10 Hp and a small pulley you may need 4 matched v belts for 10 HP using standard belts. :)

I would agree. All of my machines with 10ish hp other than the shaper have 3-4, and the shaper has 2 with huge pulleys @ 9hp so a lot of belt wrap.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2017, 09:06:52 am »
Hey thanks for the replies everyone.  I can see I have a lot to learn about belts and pulleys - wow there are so many options out there it is overwhelming.

Here is some info on the stock pulleys and belts:

Motor pulley: 2 groove, taper lock bushing style, roughly 6" o.d., motor has 1 3/8" diameter shaft with keyway.

Arbor pulley: 2 groove, 2 3/4" o.d., 1.5" i.d., 3/8" keyway for 3/8" x 3/8" key stock.

Motor spins at 1740 rpm.

The two belts are 1/2" wide, 4L-570H  FF3 is what is marked on them.

The way I see it, I have two main options:  replace stock belts with cogged belts and see what happens with stock pulleys (cheap quick option), or replace pulleys with larger diameter, 3 or 4 groove pulleys, and get new belts as well (more involved, definetely better option).

Wow, the more I read, a 4L belt is a fractional horsepower belt, a classical A would be rated much higher and a AX even more so.  Sound right?  Lots of options.

Offline Crusarius

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Canadice, New York
  • Gender: Male
  • Lost in....
    • RockModified.com
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2017, 09:10:34 am »
Don't forget a real tensioner.
I knew what I thought I meant.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2017, 09:23:56 am »
BTW, I forgot to mention last night I put washers under the motor mounts thus tightening the belt tension and that helped a lot, so my main problem is definitely power transmission issues.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2017, 09:52:30 am »
Now I am looking at rpm's and rim speed of the blades as well.  A typical 10" 3hp table saw arbor spins at 4200rpm giving a rim speed of 11000 fpm.  I used Grizzly tablesaws as a reference. 

This stock Woodmaster set up as a rip saw with 6.5" blades has the arbor spinning at 4000rpm for a rim speed of 6800 fpm, substantially slower.  If I wanted 11000fpm on the Woodmaster saw blades, I would need the arbor spinning at 6400 rpm (roughly).  Don't know if this is safe or not, time to call Woodmaster.  I know whatever I do, I don't want to drop the arbor rpm any lower than it is already.

Offline Larry

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5558
  • Age: 68
  • Location: NW Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2017, 10:56:37 am »
Wow, the more I read, a 4L belt is a fractional horsepower belt, a classical A would be rated much higher and a AX even more so.  Sound right?  Lots of options.

I think you have a good understanding of power transmission now.  Couple of things to add that you may already know.  One reason the X belts transfer more power is the cuts allow the belt to conform to the pulley much better, especially helpful on small pulleys.  Some pulleys are made so they can run either A or B belts.  The B belts transfer more power and hardly any more cost.  They won't run on the smaller pulley's. 

If you were to add a belt tensioner, which I don't think is needed, make sure it goes on the slack side.

A lot of science goes into rim speed which is called SFPM (standard feet per minute).  When I have any question I try to ask the blade manufacture what they recommend.  Calling Woodmaster is a good idea.
Larry

Nine out of ten trees recommend wood for your building project.

Offline 21incher

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Marion, NY
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2017, 01:57:52 pm »
Now I am looking at rpm's and rim speed of the blades as well.  A typical 10" 3hp table saw arbor spins at 4200rpm giving a rim speed of 11000 fpm.  I used Grizzly tablesaws as a reference. 

This stock Woodmaster set up as a rip saw with 6.5" blades has the arbor spinning at 4000rpm for a rim speed of 6800 fpm, substantially slower.  If I wanted 11000fpm on the Woodmaster saw blades, I would need the arbor spinning at 6400 rpm (roughly).  Don't know if this is safe or not, time to call Woodmaster.  I know whatever I do, I don't want to drop the arbor rpm any lower than it is already.
I was thinking the same thing when I saw you only use a 1740 rpm motor. The chip load on each tooth will be very critical as you increase the feed speed. Big electric motors are not constant torque at the RPM, they quickly build torque as the load increases so with slipping belts you most likely never get to take advantage of the higher horsepower as the load backs off from slippage. With matched belts the pulley alignment is very critical also. Sounds like woodmaster should get involved to help you work this out before spending anymore money.  :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, and a logrite cant hook.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2017, 02:43:37 pm »
Well, I have a set of AX belts on the way, I should get them Monday.  Larry, I checked, these sheaves won't take the B's unfortunately.  If I don't see a substantial difference with them, then I will bite the bullet and go with bigger sheaves and belts.  Woodmaster told me the bearings are rated for 4100rpm and they advised against increasing the arbor rpm, said if I did I would wear the bearings out faster, which makes sense.  So there's that.  Gates has an awesome free software program that I found while researching and learning online today, it's called Design Flex Pro.  You give it some parameters like motor hp, rpm, needed shaft rpm, distance between centers, etc and it will calculate solutions for you with type of belt needed, number of belts, sheave sizes, etc.  It's pretty cool and immensely helpful.  Stay tuned.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2017, 02:55:24 pm »
Increasing belt tension may work but its a band-aid. 

The root cause of slippage is the arbor pulley is to small.  A 3 HP cabinet saw or planer uses around the same size with three belts. 

If it were me, I would change out the pulleys to a size similar to what's on the arbors I pictured.  Than I would run BX (cogged) belts. 

Another idea.  If those belts on your machine are standard belts a change to cogged belts would help and you might not need bigger pulleys.

Larry, I was just researching cogged belts.. :D :)  Yep, my 3hp planer has three belts - not sure why this machine doesn't. That's also one of the first things that a fellow woodworker/friend said when I was showing him the unit.  I would not have known that the arbor pulley is too small, thanks for your input.  The only thing about going to a bigger pulley is that would slow the saw blades down unless I went with a bigger motor pulley as well (I think).  I have no idea how much that would affect the rip saw performance.  I will measure both pulleys to get the diameters.

Thanks all for the great input!

If you went to a bigger pulley on the final drive side you would indeed have to go to a bigger pulley on the motor side to keep the same tooth speed. Upside is more belt wrap so better traction.

Nice  table. I use that stuff a lot.

Here is a thought. How far below the table are the blades going, and on the original setup could it get rid of shavings out the bottom of the cut? I'm just wondering if the blades were cutting at a more severe angle out the bottom of the cut if it would not take a lot less power. Know what I mean? If you drop the blades down the saw tooth is in the cut for less time and so has less work to do before ejecting its shavings. Maybe a little less cut quality, but it may conserve some power. Just thinking out loud.

I went out and looked at mine, it is a Belsaw so not the same.

Here is who I use for belt sets. they are always perfect with no vibration inducing lumps, always have what I need even for the Euro machines.    http://www.optibelt.com/en/power-transmission/products.html

I know what you mean and I agree, but with this machine, there is a solid cast iron table under that plastic piece...I don't want to modify the machine that much, at least not yet!!!

Offline Kbeitz

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4802
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Millville, Pa.
  • Gender: Male
  • Never enough time...
    • My Hobbies
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2017, 07:50:35 pm »
For non adjustable belts I use this stuff...

 

 
Collector and builder of many things.
I have a
machine shop
Wood work shop
And a Weld shop
And now a saw mill
and a bunch of new forum friends.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2017, 08:34:30 am »
Is that like an older form of the red power twist link belt?
Well, I have my new AX cogged belts and am anxious to put them on.  But you see there is a problem that I have:  the garden beds that I started to build for the Mrs. last fall didn't finish themselves over the wintertime... and her seeds should be here this week!! :o :D ::) Got to get them finished!!


Online teakwood

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Costa Rica
  • Gender: Male
  • Switzerland
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2017, 09:12:47 am »
Very nice!

How big is your family?? ???



  :D :D

Offline SlowJoeCrow

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Waynesburg, Ohio
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2017, 10:08:38 am »
Just three munchkins, me & the Mrs.  She wanted a bigger garden to can more but we don't have a flat enough spot by the house, hence the beds.  A lot of money and a lot of work but it will be worth it in the end (I think).  There are 3 garden beds, each 8' x 65' with walkways in between.  I said if we are going to build them, might as well build them big!  Hopefully we don't regret them being so big.

Offline Just Me

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Upper-lower Michigan=Troll
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ripping speed vs. number of teeth
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2017, 04:45:46 pm »
Just three munchkins, me & the Mrs.  She wanted a bigger garden to can more but we don't have a flat enough spot by the house, hence the beds.  A lot of money and a lot of work but it will be worth it in the end (I think).  There are 3 garden beds, each 8' x 65' with walkways in between.  I said if we are going to build them, might as well build them big!  Hopefully we don't regret them being so big.

Nice! My garden is 40x70 with a greenhouse/canning kitchen in a fenced in enclosure. Have elk here so did a 6' cyclone fence all the way around it. Do about 200 quarts a year.

Look up Guy Clarks "Home grown tomatoes". Its a song I think you will like, catch myself singing it in the garden when no one is around.

Just for giggles and grins, why not throw together an elevated table for that thing that the blades can go through and see what happens. Just a temporary kind of affair to see if it helps. I know I can tell the difference on my saw when I am just through or when I have the blade a bit above the wood. Cuts better with the blade higher. I know its not safe on a tablesaw, blah, blah, but on your machine it would make no difference, you could even work out some dust collection under the sacrificial table if it was an improvement.

Later, Larry