iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Getting Started Sawing

Started by Bryan A, March 30, 2017, 03:25:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bryan A

Just wanted to hear some stories about how some of you got your start in milling and being your own boss. I'm not a sawyer, most experience was helping my uncle make some boards with his chainsaw mill, which was unusually satisfying for some reason. I am considering buying a mill in the future, but it's something that will have to pay for itself. I'm not scared of hard work, but I do have a full time job working midnights, something that I'd eventually like to phase out in favor of working for myself. The area of the  country I live in has an enormous amount of hardwood, BIG hardwood trees that get ground into mulch. I live in the city, but will be moving to the country on my 12 acres once I get a  little more money saved up to build on it. I'll be about 10-15 minutes away from 2 high end suburbs and 30 minutes away from a medium sized large city (600k in city 2M in  metro area). Given the populations that surround me, I can't help but think that there has to be a market out there that's not being served or as well as it could be. There are a few Sawyers/Woodworkers around who have teamed up with local tree services that take yard trees, saw them up, dry them and sell the wood or make furniture out of them to sell. That's an idea I've had since long before I found anyone else doing it. My vision is more along the lines of making industrial type furniture using recycled wood and metal as part of my business and supplying dried lumber to woodworkers in the other side of my business. I envision the furniture side taking up the majority of my time, while the  sawing side much less but just as important. All of that said and knowing what you know, how would you approach this business. Would you go for the LT70 mill and hit the milling  hard and phase the furniture side in or buy lumber from the local sawyers to use in furniture projects until I can justify an LT15 or LT40 and grow from there. I'm pretty heavily loaded with woodworking equipment and welding equipment, what I don't have are the big machines for handling large boards  like wide planer or jointer or cnc plasma table for banging out metal parts. My gut tells me that I'd enjoy the milling/drying/selling business as much or more than the furniture and custom build business, but I think they go so well together that in my mind it's hard to separate them.

If you were going to get into this type of business from the ground up, what would your game plan look like? I've been a long time reader on this forum and hold you guys and gals in high regard for your opinions. You work and recreate in an industry that I find very interesting. My grandpa was a woodworker his whole life, so I guess that gene got passed on to me.

running elk

I have a regular job as you do but use my mill to build fun projects.  I have a large farm that always needs repair so the mill was a great addition for these projects. I get most of my lumber just as you described. Most people have unwanted trees and give them to me. My plan is to mill full time when I retire in about 8 years. But i'm sure there is a market out there for custom furniture. People ask me to build furniture all the time for them, anyways not sure if this was any help but wish you the best of luck.

WV Sawmiller

Bryan,

   I'm chasing a different market than you suggest. I got out of USMC pre-retirement age and worked overseas for most of the next 25 years and got to where finding such work was harder all the time so I retired. I loved hunting and fishing and spending time with the grandkids but still had too much time on my hands so looked for something to help occupy some of my extra time. Sort of a cost neutral hobby subject to making a little mad money from time to time and schedules I can mostly set.

   I had been slightly interested in sawmills for years and WM was diligent but not pushy about subtle reminders of local shows and such so I made a short side trip to the Albermarle NC office on a trip to Charlotte to see my daughter. Tyler showed me the mills and I liked what I saw from an operation and maintenance point of view so I ordered one for January delivery. While waiting for delivery I got ready by getting my business license and found this site and read nearly every thread starting way back when Mr. Tom was a big contributor. Picked up more tips on business cards and such.

   Mill got here and Tyler showed me how to operate it. I'd never even watched one before. Sawed a little stock for myself and built a pole barn to store lumber in. By the time I finished the shed I had no more lumber left to store so had to cut some more then eased into the mobile sawing business. Still learning every day and mostly enjoying it. I now cut and sell a little lumber between small custom mobile jobs. Even learning to make some primitive benches and such.

   For what you are describing I see major investments and a long time before you should expect to become profitable, if ever. I'd certainly check the local markets as to how much demand and for what. Most successful sawyers I come across seem to have found and fill a niche and they stay flexible as markets and trends change. You will need a lot of space to work and store significant amounts of logs and lumber. Heavy duty equipment and MHE to move logs, lumber, slabs, sawdust, etc. as well as store and process lumber. Where will your logs come from? How certain is your supply? Who will you sell to? Same question about your customers? What value added can you offer to improve your profits and markets? How will you live while these things stabilize and grow to a point you can survive? How is your health? What does your family think about this proposal?

   I'd read a lot more, check the markets and supply and try to get some more experience with local sawyers to learn more about the equipment and process before diving in to the deep end.

   At this stage I think you have a lot more questions than answers. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

TKehl

Small budget, no support equipment, urban timber (portable one off jobs)...  This is screaming for a swing mill + slabber.

For the wide slabs, there are planing and sanding heads that attach to many of the swing mills as well.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Kbeitz

Looks like you will be lookin for a tractor...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Ianab

Quote from: TKehl on March 30, 2017, 05:43:25 PM
Small budget, no support equipment, urban timber (portable one off jobs)...  This is screaming for a swing mill + slabber.

For the wide slabs, there are planing and sanding heads that attach to many of the swing mills as well.

Agreed. Seriously look at a Swing blade mill and the optional extras.

While you wont always have the "best" machine for any one job, it's the most versatile in terms of a "do it all" machine.

You can:
- Saw regular size logs into normal dimension lumber. Arguably you have no advantage over a band mill here, but you can do the job just fine.
- Saw over-size logs that most mill can't handle. Up around 5ft dia is no problem
- Saw out WIDE live edge slabs, up to that 5ft width.
- Saw pretty much anyplace, without heavy machinery. The mill is portable enough to hand carry and wheel into someone's back yard, without messing up their lawn (any more than having a huge tree drop in it already has anyway)
- Plane and sand the same wide slabs of wood once you get them dry, for making bar tops, tables, benches etc.
- Likely you will be able to work WITH other mill operators and cut logs for them that are too big for a band mill to handle.
- You don't absolutely need heavy support equipment, If you can't move a log, you move the mill. Some log handling tools and a winch are handy, but that's all smaller stuff.
- Low maintenance costs. Because the mill functions are manual on the basic mills there is very little to go wrong, and they are pretty simple to fix when they do. Metal strikes still hurt of course, same as a band mill, New tips on the saw blade, or some grinder time on the chain. But costs aren't so high that you cant take the chance.

And more importantly the purchase price is reasonable enough, because that's basically the only large piece of equipment you need to get started. So you don't have a huge financial millstone around your neck where you HAVE to make $xxx per month to repay the loan. Other equipment you can add later after you see the direction your business is heading in. More custom sawing and maybe a Bobcat and heavier trailer would be more use?  Or you end up doing more on the woodworking end and invest in a kiln and more workshop equipment?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

4x4American

I don't think jumping into an lt70 would make much sense at this point.  You need proof of concept with as little cost as possible.  You need to do alot of market research.  Just because you have alot of timber in your area don't mean that you can get it.  At least around here where there are many mills.  Loggers are leary of new businesses.  When there are mills around that take all they can produce, loggers become loyal to them.  Some work under contract for the mill and can't sell you any timber..  If you're building furniture, a small mill should keep up with your needs, especially at the start.  Then evolve into a bigger mill when production requires it.  I think that while you're over here dreaming, you should be buying dried lumber in and testing markets.  My .02
Boy, back in my day..

YellowHammer

I would say do as I did, start with an LT15 or similar, minimal investment, very capable, learn the ropes, make not too expensive mistakes, and if it all works out, expand and capitalize through realized net profit and and expertise. 

There were two startups in my local area that used, actually attempted to copy our business model (that's what they told me) and both over estimated, overcapitalized, over invested, and undereducated themselves right out of business.  Both are long gone, each lasting about a year.  Remember, if it was easy or a sure thing, everybody would be doing it. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

taylorsmissbeehaven

I started with an lt 15 to build a barn with the mature pines on my property. I have 3 friends that own tree service busines  and after cutting a bit for them they were happy to refer me. Long story short, start small and grow into  it. I still work 50 hours a week at a regular job and saw for myself and a few small jobs on weekends. These jobs paid for the 15 and just finished paying for an lt35. Debt is a bad thing in my opinion. Go slow and stay after and it will work out just the way it was supposed to. Good luck, Brian
Opportunity is missed by most because it shows up wearing bib overalls and looks like work.

longtime lurker

Business is business, and theres more of them fail then enjoy long term success.

Much depends on your tolerance to risk: How much can you afford to lose? How many working years do you have in front of you to become comfortable again if you go bust in a big way? Whats the fallback plan? Debt aint bad - until you can't pay it off. Then it's as bad as it gets.

Theres a big difference between a calculated risk and a huge gamble. I contracted to purchase a new-to-me sawline last week and also signed up to buy the property we were previously leasing to install it in. But I am an established operator with a lot of experience in the game, existing equipment to support the new toy, a guaranteed log supply, and existing customer base. Lotsa dollars involved but its calculated risk not a crap shoot: my biggest issue now is getting it out the door on time and a cyclone flattened a couple towns just down the coast last week so demand for the next 12 months looks good. ¼ million linear feet of roof batten over and above my regular stuff and I'll more or less own the sawline by christmas. smiley_whip

You are yet to run a sawmill. First thing to do would be get some time offsiding for a sawmiller - free labour makes them happy - think of it as a traineeship where you get to trade some of your spare time and sweat for some lessons and find out if you like doing it first. It's kinda sensible to find out if you like the work before you buy a mill.

If you like it then you got a couple choices:
Start small and work up from there.
Start further up the chain equipment wise and stay with the dayjob while you get established. That second strategy can be sound - you get the productivity of a bigger unit while milling 2 days a week, which can be more then the productivity of a baby one running for 5 days a week. it also gives you the ability o make more bad boards faster... back to spending time working around a mill first being important so you're making a saleable product.
Or buy out an existing operation lock stock and customer book. That gives you gear and resources and customers ready made. But you better be able to cut a good board or they'll evaporate real fast, which is why the traineeship thing is soooooooooo important.

Dont bet more then you can afford to lose, or at least reasonably expect to pay back.



The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Bryan A

I appreciate all the sound advice. :P

My tolerance for risk is pretty high but backed by a fairly stable good paying job with the railroad for the time being. I'm more or less wanting to hedge my bets and diversify my income a little bit and can afford to take a loss in the beginning for a reward later on. I've always had it in the back of my mind that the railroads only hire people so that they can fire them, they're sick puppies like that, but I've made it for well over a decade and they keep sending me a check every other Friday so it's pretty reliable.

When I move out to my land, the intention is to build a 50x80x20 insulated metal building with a 25x50 bay having an upstairs apartment to live in. My living expenses would go down considerable when I make that happen, no more payments on the house I live in now on top of a land payment and taxes at both. What I will save on a monthly basis would make payments on an LT40 HD with all the bells and whistles. But after taking in some of the above advice and thinking  about it a bit I'm not sure that would be the best use of my money. It seems to me that the money is made in the wood business, at the scale I would be in the wood business, on the value added sided. I imagine that buying cheap or free trees from lots being cleared or taken down by a tree service, bringing them back to my place and having them milled by a local portable sawyer, kiln dried at my place and then either sold or used in projects I build for sale would leave everyone involved happy. The tree guy gets a case of beer or a "hundred dollar handshake" every now and then, the sawyer has a regular customer that helps pay for his mill payment and puts food on the table, I'd get free reign of what comes out of the kiln to either sell or use in a project and I wouldn't have the nut to crack each month of trying to make a mill pay for itself.

I'm pretty confident in my welding and fabrication skills and would feel pretty comfortable at some point down the road maybe building my own mill if it became necessary.

Den-Den

+ 1 on the idea of starting small and growing as money allows.

Custom furniture is a tough market, to do well in it you need to do very high quality work for wealthy customers.  I get requests for custom work often, but most of them want something like they have seen in a store for less money.  A few actually want and are willing to pay for custom work.

Making lumber for woodworkers might be a good market, stores like Woodcraft stay in business with very high prices.  It should not be hard to compete with them if you have access to a kiln and focus on furniture quality wood.  Trying to compete on construction lumber would be a short path to bankruptcy.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

Thank You Sponsors!