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Started by Jeff, March 23, 2017, 07:54:35 AM

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Darrel

Quote from: Jeff on May 15, 2017, 08:52:19 AM
Yes, the starter can stay. The only question I have on it would be, going from positive ground 6volt to negative ground 12 volt, will it run backwards when swapping he power wire to the positive on the 12volt?

Yes, the starter will turn backwards in a hurry. Probably not the best option.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

pineywoods

Quote from: Darrel on May 15, 2017, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: Jeff on May 15, 2017, 08:52:19 AM
Yes, the starter can stay. The only question I have on it would be, going from positive ground 6volt to negative ground 12 volt, will it run backwards when swapping he power wire to the positive on the 12volt?

Yes, the starter will turn backwards in a hurry. Probably not the best option.

NOpe, I think you will find the starter will work just fine on +12 volts. Think you will find you need the dropping resistor with a 12 volt coil unless you go with electronic ignition. So-called 12 volt coils are designed to require 10 volts or so when running, full 12 volts when cranking. Without the resistor, will have problems burning points and coils...Instruments..amp meter will work just fine on 12, oil pressure, temp and fuel gauge need the 6 volt regulator...Wiper motor is probably vacuum, might want to change that to 12 volt electric. Turn signals may or may not work on 12, depends on the blinker, easy enough to change..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Ox

I've done this conversion on several old tractors.  Nothing has to be changed to the starter.  When you change everything over to 12 volt negative ground, everything for the starter just stays the same.  It won't know the difference.

All the other stuff the others mentioned about resistors for your gauges and stuff like that still applies.  I'm assuming this is for the little bulb that lights the gauge up?  These should be mechanical gauges being this old.  Only electrical running gauge would be the ammeter probably.  That'll need changing for the 12 volts.  Run a resistor to this to bring it to 6 volts will never let you know if your 12 volt system is failing.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Magicman

I accidentally installed the battery "backwards" in a positive ground 1949 Chevy truck.  The starter worked and it still cranked fine but the generator gauge pegged backwards.  :o  Yup, I had to pull the battery and turn it around.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

grouch

You'll need to change the starter solenoid to 12v -- either before or after the 6v one smokes.

Using resistors to drop from 12v to 6v is not nice, especially for gauges. The voltage will vary all over the place. See E=IR.

My '80 Dodge used the same vibrating leaf in a can IVR found in lots of vehicles of its age and older and every gauge indicated a rough guess. Using a solid state regulator, such as a 7805 (good for up to 1A loads), gives consistent results regardless of load, battery condition, temp, etc. Making your own low power (3A or less) dc-dc converter doesn't make much sense now, though, because you can buy 'em for about what the components to make 'em cost.

Any bulbs will need to be swapped for 12v bulbs or they'll fry, sooner or later. I'd go LED just because of the cool factor of having them on *that* truck.
Find something to do that interests you.

Ox

I thought this old truck had the button type starter switch like the old tractors had?  If so it'll be alright.  The 6 volt actually draws more amps doing the same work as 12 volt.  Twice as much, in fact.  :)  It's good you're able to think about things like that, it never entered my mind.  Maybe cause subconsciously I never had any problems with the old tractors and I figured this old truck isn't much more than an old tractor with higher gears and a cab on it!  :D

I've been enjoying following your other posts with all the pics, grouch.  Keep em coming!  we all like pics i think!  8)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Jeff

Quote from: grouch on May 15, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
You'll need to change the starter solenoid to 12v -- either before or after the 6v one smokes.

The starter solenoid is human. Foot starter peddle/ switch.  :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

grouch

Ox:
Are we talking about the same thing? I was thinking of the solenoid (a.k.a. bendix) on the starter that engages the gear rather than the solenoid (relay) that uses a small current to send the big current from battery to starter. They're both just big electro-magnets, but the one is moving a gear and the other is just closing contacts.

[Nevermind. Just got that "warning" and I see Jeff has answered it. Been ages since I saw a starter peddle].



Thanks for the kind words about my photos. They're always too dark, too light or just weird colors.
Find something to do that interests you.

Ox

I see what you're saying, with the solenoid operated bendix on the starter - got one on the old Oliver.  The old tractors didn't have starters like this, just the starter motor itself that threw the bendix gear out to the flywheel with the twisting of the shaft when you hit the button.

I'm guessing this old truck is the latter starter, and Jeff said it's the old pedal switch so I think it's good to go with no modifications required.  It'll crank like it should with no problems.  Actually, one can crank surprisingly long on a 6 volt starter with 12 volts running it without anything burning up.  The old stuff is just built better and heavier.  Of course, a properly maintained engine will not have to crank more than a few seconds.  Ever.  :laugh:
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

grouch

Cleanup after this paint job was really easy.


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snowstorm

Quote from: Don P on May 14, 2017, 09:31:33 PM
I think you'll need a ballast resistor in there as well. It's been awhile since I did the tractor I think I put a 12v coil on and the resistor was in the distributor feed
if you are using points you are correct

Jeff

Doesn't that depend on the coil on needing a ballast resister?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ox

To add to the confusion, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that every coil is 6 volts initially.  The coils rated for 12 volts have an internal resistor that brings it to 6 volts.  The coils rated for 6 volts simply don't have the resistor in there.

Anyway - if you're wanting to use this same 6 volt coil, you'll need to put a ballast resistor inline somewhere for the coil + wire.  I used the ballast resistor for the older Dodge pickups - in the 70s.  They used to be cheap but last one I remember paying around $15 or something.  I'd go to a boneyard and find one off something. 

The points don't care if it's 6 or 12 volts.  Neither does the condenser.  But I would put new ones in anyway.  A weak condenser really makes things run poorly.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

snowstorm

Back in the 70,s mopar used a ballast resister of it had points.

thecfarm

I don't remember anyone talking much about the starters on the conversion to 12 volts on those old Ford tractors.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

grouch

Quote from: snowstorm on May 15, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
Back in the 70,s mopar used a ballast resister of it had points.

And into the 80s even if it had no points. :) My '80 Dodge truck came with electronic ignition and ballast resistor. I switched it over to the later generation GM electronic ignition (common as grains of sand) and bypassed that ballast. The parts are screwed to the fender well about a handspan away from the distributor and coil. The original system is still in place and can be reactivated by moving a couple of wire connectors.
Find something to do that interests you.

snowstorm

Quote from: Jeff on May 15, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
Doesn't that depend on the coil on needing a ballast resister?
some coils can have it built in. battery voltage with the motor running and charging as it should  13.7. the resister cuts the voltage to the points so they can live

Don P

Quote from: grouch on May 16, 2017, 01:29:22 AM
Quote from: snowstorm on May 15, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
Back in the 70,s mopar used a ballast resister of it had points.

And into the 80s even if it had no points. :) My '80 Dodge truck came with electronic ignition and ballast resistor. I switched it over to the later generation GM electronic ignition (common as grains of sand) and bypassed that ballast. The parts are screwed to the fender well about a handspan away from the distributor and coil. The original system is still in place and can be reactivated by moving a couple of wire connectors.

Same here on my '80 far muse truck. I think that circuit supplied a hot spark with the key in crank and then cut it back down in the run position. I might have that resistor on a crusher bound truck here, its a 76 or 78 Dodge I think. Holler if needed and I'll take a look.

Magicman

Yup, they started on 12V and ran on 6V,  It was a sure sign that the resistor had failed when the engine started while you were cranking and died when you released the starter/key.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

pineywoods

Hey guys, a 46 dodge ain't gonna have key start unless somebody installed it.  Big ole knob on the floor that is linked directly to heavy contacts in the starter..No solenoid involved. Just install a 12 volt battery and don't worry about the starter.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

bigred1951

My 51 gmc has 12 volt battery. Not sure if the coil is 12 volt or not. But still running old generator and starter. Has a little resistor on the firewall. It also has the push button stater on the floor by the gas pedal

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

thechknhwk

Drop a 12v cummins in that bad boy and put a dump bed on it with drop sides :D :D :D ;D

grouch

That red firewall looks sharp against that dark body.

Are there any rust issues at all in the sheet metal? Fender wells? Sills around windows and doors? Under trim? I haven't seen any rot in any of the photos posted. Heckuva barn find.

Will you be saving (ziploc bag or something) any original parts that you replace with more modern ones? I can see some museum director 100 years from now cackling like a maniac at finding that truck and a pile of parts.

Got any closeups of the latches on the butterfly hood?
Find something to do that interests you.

Don P

Not wanting to break in on Grouch's comments, cause I want to see that but it wanted to confirm on the starter question before I head out. A closeup of the hood ornament would be cool too. That is a stylized ram.

I looked at the tractor, I did switch to negative ground and the starter works fine. I also noticed the resistor and either I had a brain fart or something didn't pan out... oldtimers can't remember which, I bypassed it and haven't been replacing points. Not huge use but several hundred hours since the changeover without issue that I know of.

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