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Author Topic: Chattering band-Kasco  (Read 2881 times)

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Offline Deere80

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Chattering band-Kasco
« on: March 21, 2017, 08:05:49 am »
what would make the cut look like this?  2 weeks ago I installed Cooks roller guides and now I am getting rough cuts, I am using .045 7 degree Kasco bands that are new out of the box and have tried more than one so that isn't the problem.  If I speed up it will not give me the gouge marks but I am pushing it so hard that when I hit a knot it gives me a wave with a brand new band and if the board is wide I cant push hard because I do not have the horsepower to go fast.  Do I not have enough down pressure on the rollers??  I have them set at 1/4" down pressure.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 08:08:14 am »
I'm kinda new at this but I would like to make a guess that you have
one or two teeth out of set.
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Offline ladylake

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 08:35:31 am »

 I'd try tightening or loosening the tension, is your blade level with the deck before adding down pressure.  Steve
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Offline Mt406

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 09:19:20 am »
I get the same pattern.
My mill is a LT 35  25 hp
It seams to happen to me on wide cuts over 8 in.
I am thinking (for all that's worth) it has to do with blade tension and speed.
most of my wood is for ranch's they don't care much about looks they want cheap.
when its finish wood I go with a 4 it gives me a smooth cut and cuts knots best for me   

Scott

Offline pineywoods

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 09:36:35 am »
Most common cause for that washboard pattern is a slipping drive belt. Band wheel belt worn down to where the blade rides on the metal of the bandwheel will also cause that. The blade gets a good bite into the wood and slows down or even temporarily stops, then pulls loose from the wood and resumes speed..
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Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 09:45:07 am »
I have a new drive belt installed ten hours ago that i checked last night and is tight.  If that is the case Pineywoods why would it be a lot worse when I go slow and when I increase my feed speed it is a lot better.  Wouldn't it slip more if i am pushing the blade harder into the material?
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Offline Mt406

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 09:51:39 am »
Piney
That is a good thought My mill has only 100 hrs and I adjusted the drive belt when it was recommended I will check it.
On my mill it only seams to happen with 7s.
If I am remembering right I think the WM dealer said I didn't have the HP to run 7s or was he talking about the turbo 7.
 

Offline Cutting Edge

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 10:52:50 am »

what would make the cut look like this?   If I speed up it will not give me the gouge marks but I am pushing it so hard that when I hit a knot it gives me a wave with a brand new band and if the board is wide I cant push hard because I do not have the horsepower to go fast. 



This is a common problem with smaller mills trying to run to aggressive of a hook angle.  The engine does not have a sufficient torque curve to keep the blade at a consistent speed and blade speed drops, harmonics set in/take over... IMO

Most small mills are already running on the low side of the blade speed to compensate for the lack of engine HP and a VERY narrow torque band in relationship to RPM's.  Combine that with sawdust spilling past the gullet due to a small particle size and inconsistent feed rates, the problem begins to compound itself.  Hence, poor cut quality.

As ladylake suggested... Make sure tension is proper.  Adding down pressure may help but it will only cover up the root cause IMO.  There are many mills of this class running 3/16"-1/4" down pressure making excellent lumber provided the best suited blade is being used.

If tension is right, a small reduction in the amount of set may prove to be the best solution to help stabilize the blade in the cut.  If you have the ability, resharpening at a 4 deg hook angle will probably produce the biggest improvement.




 I didn't have the HP to run 7s ....
 

In my experience and feedback from customers, this is a prime example of why a 4 deg blade works best on these type mills and why I always recommend it to most customers under 25hp.


Hope this helps.

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Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 11:07:13 am »
So if that is the case Cutting Edge why did I not see this ever with a 10 degree band then? 
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Offline Cutting Edge

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 11:56:30 am »
The 7 deg. blade has a taller tooth/deeper gullet, which in turn, takes away from the beam strength of the blade.  And at lower speeds (surface ft per minute), makes it more susceptible to harmonics. 

Maybe the best way to put it in different terms would be how a vehicle acts when a tire is out of balance and at certain speeds it will make the vehicle shake and if that speed is maintained it will get progressively worse (sometimes violently).  Increase speed and the feeling of the vibration goes away.  Similar to how you described increasing feed rate and the chatter marks went away... but lacked the power needed to maintain a smoother cut.

Vibration causes harmonics.  This could be from the engine, the belts, band wheel out of balance, flat spot on guide roller, etc.  or a combination.  Regardless, this can/does get transferred to the blade.  The blade is flexible and has little chance of resisting these forces.

If you compare the 10 deg profile to the 7 degree, the difference is very noticeable.  The Kasco 10 deg and 4 deg have the same tooth height/gullet depth and back angle, only difference is the hook angle.


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Offline Ox

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 12:38:39 pm »
Harmonics.  When I see this I change the tension in the blade and it goes away.
Not saying the others are wrong, cause what they're saying is right too.  This is simply what I do.  :)
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 12:47:34 pm »
Grab a hold of your band guide`s and see if they are not moving-they need to be rigid,try without band tension...
Albert

Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 02:02:50 pm »
York,  you saying the roller guides?  to see if I have a bad bearing or loose bolt not holding it steady?
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Offline york

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 02:57:58 pm »
Yes,they need to be rock solid,no movement,no vibration...
Albert

Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 07:56:56 am »
Well last night I went and tightened my drive belt, checked the rollers to make sure they were solid, and adjusted one of them a little because it was off  on the level of the blade.  Cut a log and it was better but still get the chatter marks a little so will just have to play with it some more to try and fix it.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 08:23:34 am »
Deere80 i am with Cutting Edge on this one.I saw a lot of knotty pine.I don't get the chatter you are getting with my lt 70 but i did with my old lt 40.I did however change to the 4 degree bands and i don't get near as much wave as before.The lt 40 was 24 hp and the lt 70 is 62 hp.Hope this helps.
al glenn

Offline gmmills

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2017, 11:22:42 pm »
   You do not have enough horsepower on your mill to run a 7 deg blade. You can adjust you mill until you are utterly frustrated and will not correct the problem.  Cannot emphasize this enough, any mill with under 25 HP should be running a 4 deg blade as an all around blade. Low hp mills are not capable of maintaining optimum blade speed, narrow torque band, to be able use a blade of higher hook angle. Being able to maintain blade speed is paramount to sawing accurately while achieving peak productivity for your mills hp rating. Get yourself some 4 deg blades. 
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2017, 12:07:58 am »
Harmonics and at least one tooth out of set.  The harmonics is simply a blade that vibrates excessively and gouges wood.  Caused by what everybody has said.  It's easy to detect, look at the band when it spinning, you'll see vibration before it ever hits the log.

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2017, 06:12:30 am »
I cut ash in the fall last year with 7 deg. blades with a 13 hp Honda.
I just bought a box of 4 deg. blades and have not tried them yet so
I don't know how much difference that I'm going to see. But I don't
think I had any problem with the 7's like everyone said I would with
only 13 hp. I will report on how much difference that I find.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2017, 07:11:46 am »
   You do not have enough horsepower on your mill to run a 7 deg blade. You can adjust you mill until you are utterly frustrated and will not correct the problem.  Cannot emphasize this enough, any mill with under 25 HP should be running a 4 deg blade as an all around blade. Low hp mills are not capable of maintaining optimum blade speed, narrow torque band, to be able use a blade of higher hook angle. Being able to maintain blade speed is paramount to sawing accurately while achieving peak productivity for your mills hp rating. Get yourself some 4 deg blades.

I have to disagree with this. I have the same mill the OP has. I use 7drg Kasco blades and I don't have the problem he is having. I find those 7 drg blades are three times better then 10 drg. ;D

OP, did you have this problem before changing out your guides?

OP, check your throttle linkage to make sure your engine is running at full speed. Mine had slipped in the past.

This is some oak fresh felled and I sawed this morning using Kasco 7 blades. No marks.

 

 

Offline Cutting Edge

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2017, 07:58:52 am »

Another point worth mentioning...

Judging by one of the pictures and the fact of being located in N. Dakota, there is a good chance Deere80 is sawing partially frozen logs.

As some of us know, frozen logs are a whole different animal.  Partially frozen (thawed outer/frozen inner or vice versa) are even worse.

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Offline barbender

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2017, 08:29:36 am »
Good point, Cutting Edge. I also agree with your assessment of the cause of the striations, the only time I get those marks is when I am moving too slow.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 11:59:53 pm »
Although I don't think there's anything wrong with the blade (might not be the best profile for you), ffr, don't rule a blade out because you tried a few new ones.  It's not a bad idea to pull a blade off early that's cutting good and save it as a benchmark blade.  Before you pull it off, spritz it with a blast of your diesel/bar oil to keep it from rusting over time.  Get you some 4 degree blades and don't look back.
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Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2017, 11:06:43 am »
Well with the help from you guys giving suggestions and talking on the phone with Cutting Edge I got it figured out why I was getting the washboard look on the wood.  I readjusted the Cooks rollers that didn't change anything, I added more tension that didn't do anything, I added even more tension that didn't help, loosened it up under what is recommended that didn't do it.  Then  both Cutting Edge and Goose63 mentioned to me if I had changed out the rubber bushing under a steel washer where you tighten the blade up with the T-handle. I never knew it was even there and Goose has the same mill which Woodland sent him some dished/spring washers that replace the rubber.  Called Woodland up they sent them free of charge installed them put on a 4 degree Kasco blade and bye bye to the washboard look.  I bought a box of 7 degree from Cutting Edge which he told me to buy 4 degree because that would fit my HP of my saw better but I didn't listen to him which I should have because he was right the 4 degree cut much better than the 7s for my saw.  So I just sharpened my 7s to 4s and they work great.  If you need any blades I would recommend buying them from Cutting Edge he was a big help for me trying to figure this out and he is very knowledgeable all around.
 

 
This is the rubber bushing.
 

 
 

 
 

 
Cuts after fixing the problem
 

 
Slab from same  log before fixing the rubber washer.
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Offline ladylake

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2017, 12:23:57 pm »

   From Cutting edge  (The 7 deg. blade has a taller tooth/deeper gullet, which in turn, takes away from the beam strength of the blade.) There is a lot of truth in that statement, I find blades with a shallower gullet cut straighter, even adjusted my sharpener to make a shallower gullet.  I tried some Kasco blades with a deeper gullet than my Simonds and they didn't  cut very good at first but after a few sharpening's when the gullet matched my Simonds blades they cut way better. More beam and less tooth height trying to twist on the blade.  A mill south of me had exactly the same results.   Steve
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2017, 12:50:47 pm »
Hay Seth glade to hear you got it cutting good I'm going up to Hazen Friday will stop in to see ya bought noon 8)
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2017, 01:54:46 pm »
Glad you got if fixed.  Seeing the before pic, it was clear I was having the same problem as you.  Woodland Mills is sending me the updated washer as a free replacement.

I had replaced the urethane washer once already - about three months after I got this mill.  The original washer started "oozing" out around the bearing surface of the adjustment mechanism.  It looks like this will solve the problem once and for all.  Keep us updated if you have further developments or see signs of recurrence.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2017, 07:31:57 pm »
Personally I like deep gullets.  The shallow gullet blades cut too slow and I have worse results with them.  Run a wider, thicker blade if you're worried about beam strength.  IMO
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2017, 08:29:11 pm »

  My mill cuts faster and straighter with shallow gullets as I can push it harder while still cutting straight.  Steve

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2017, 09:54:27 pm »
I doubt it
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2017, 05:14:24 am »

  After sawing over 2 million bf and trying out lots of different brands I find Simonds which have lower gullet dept. than most saw the straightest in tough wood like white oak, white ash and spruce' Sawing easy wood like white pine, red oak  or popular they all saw good.  Steve
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Offline xlogger

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2017, 05:32:30 am »
I doubt it
Well I don't know about you but Steve has cut 10 times more wood than me and he has given me some good advice over the years.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2017, 07:06:45 am »
Maybe if you put a deep gullet blade on it wouldn't take 11,000hrs to saw 2mmbf :D :D


edit 12,000hrs
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2017, 07:23:03 am »
 
  As mentioned I've tried deep gullet blades and don't saw as straight as shallow gullet blades. Why do you think that deep gullet blades saw faster but not as straight.   Steve
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Offline Deere80

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2017, 07:45:45 am »
Goose I might take vacation Friday so I might be home, it depends on what the weather is going to be out. 
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2017, 09:45:13 am »
Because deep gullet blades have more gullet capacity.  With the shallow gullet blades, you can't push them as fast without getting waves because the blade will spill sawdust and get the blade all cattywampus.  If you haven't you should try WM turbo 1-1/2 .055" thick blades (on 1-1/2" guide rollers).  To me it's night and day difference (in hardwood) compared to say a ripper 37 or a kasco 7 or reg wm 7, etc.  If your mill is properly aligned and the blade body is flat you should have excellent results.  Also have to get a wm blade with a good weld joint.  Alot of times they are less than perfect
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2017, 10:22:17 am »
 

  Explain why me or you can saw easy to saw wood at high feed rates and then saw tough wood at much lower feed rates which puts out way less sawdust and then blame it on the gullets being too full of sawdust, the gullet too full theory makes no sense at all, my really shallow gullet 3/4 pitch Simonds  saw hard too cut and easy too cut wood the straightest  by far  at high feed rates . As mentioned more beam and less tooth puts less twisting force on the blade. I'm not switching to a high priced 1 1/2 blade that break too soon when I can make my diesel smoke and still cut straight with my Simonds 1 1/4 blade.  The thicker blades would just cut slower as the kerf is wider.  If I had a 45 hp diesel I might give them a try.  A 3/4 pitch Simonds blade cuts wide spruce better than any deep gullet blade.  Steve
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Offline Ox

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 10:54:29 am »
ladylake - what tooth angle do you prefer on your Simmonds 3/4 pitch blades?  I have a lot of trouble with standing dead red pine and wavy cuts and after trying many things your experience with these blades may have me wanting to try them.  Where do you order them from?
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2017, 11:21:14 am »
 
 I buy them at 10 as that's all they sell then sharpen to 4 , the 10 cut good but the 4 are a little better.  With dead pine make sure your blades aren't gumming up.   Will send you a PM.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2017, 11:54:11 am »
Yep, no gumming here I can promise you that!  I've tried every trick in the book except for different tooth spacing.  It's the only thing I haven't tried and it's why I'm a little interested in it.  I've heard spruce is tough to cut straight and if you can, then I can!
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2017, 01:25:23 pm »
Ibought two of the Ripper 37s with the shallow gulet and dont like them. New on my woodland thy push just as hard as a dull deep gullet. I have one left will use it on a dirty log then toss it out
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2017, 05:41:21 pm »
     Different sawyers have different mills, use different bands and cut different woods under different conditions.  Results may very dramatically between one and the next. 
     Why question another seasoned professional about what works for him?  That really is not in the tradition of this Forum.  If it doesn't work for you, don't do it that way!
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2017, 06:02:28 pm »
Yep, no gumming here I can promise you that!  I've tried every trick in the book except for different tooth spacing.  It's the only thing I haven't tried and it's why I'm a little interested in it.  I've heard spruce is tough to cut straight and if you can, then I can!
 

 A little extra set also helps in dry pine but you've most likely tried that.  In spruce their is night and day difference between 7/8 pitch and a shallow gullet 3/4 pitch blade.  The 3/4 pitch saws really good up to 14" wide or so and just a bit of up and down in real wide cuts, the 7/8 in wide cuts is terrible.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2017, 07:51:30 pm »
     Different sawyers have different mills, use different bands and cut different woods under different conditions.  Results may very dramatically between one and the next. 
     Why question another seasoned professional about what works for him?  That really is not in the tradition of this Forum.  If it doesn't work for you, don't do it that way!
Why question another sawyer?  For different or better ideas.  And I think you're wrong - This is what the forum is based upon.  People asking others what has worked for them and for different ideas.  What are you trying to say?  You're not making much sense.  Meant with respect.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2017, 08:37:32 pm »
Why question might better have read "why insult?". Dug kinda came across that way, whether intentional or not.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2017, 09:21:39 pm »
Why question might better have read "why insult?". Dug kinda came across that way, whether intentional or not.


I'm a ball buster smart aleck by nature, if you were to have met me in person it might make more sense...the internet and typing doesnt really relay stuff well.  I don't saw much softwood mainly low grade hardwood and its fast sawing no rose smelling so were in different worlds.  Anyways, shallow gullets do not work for me, thick wide and deep is how I like em :D



Boy, back in my day..

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2017, 10:15:39 pm »
I figured that was the case, I'm a big time smart aleck needler myself and I have to be careful the way I come across online😊 I was more trying to clarify what was being talked about than anything. I've said it many times before, I'll say it again- I "dig" Dug's sense of humor ;D
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2017, 08:42:22 am »
Successful sawyers have their own tried and proven methods as well as niche markets.   They may be different than what other sawyers are accustomed to but different is not necessarily wrong.  It does not bode well to unnecessarily "call them out" just because you disagree with or do not fully understand their methods. 

Until I have walked in their sawdust I find it best to open my eyes and ears and learn.
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2017, 11:39:06 am »
You guys are just jealous that you cannot compete with the 13hp EZ Jr baby!! :D :D :D :D :D

Y'all remember when MagicMan, Barbender, 4x4, and I had that sawing competition last year and I smoked'em?  :o

Yeah, me neither  :D :D :D :D :D
Sawed 4 years with EZ Boardwalk Jr 13hp. I now have a 2004 LT40HDD51. Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener, Cooks Single Tooth Setter, a bunch of chainsaws, and an old chocolate lab.

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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2017, 12:07:40 pm »
Probably could've smoked me, Deese! I have the lowest production rate of any hydraulic mill in the midwest, maybe the whole country ;D
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2017, 06:56:42 pm »
My saw is a skookum choocher but the guy running it is a half-wit
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2017, 07:41:00 pm »
Goose
The ripper 37 7's cut great on my mill with 13 hp
Nice and flat in rock maple and I don't have to buy 15 at a time :)
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2017, 09:23:49 am »
Deere80, I was following this thread and saw your picture of the issue you were having.  I had been having the same problem recently.  Woodland Mills sent me the spring washer upgrade (free and promptly) which I installed last week.  It improved but didn't completely eliminate the problem.  (The spring washer is a big and necessary improvement over the polyurethane bushing though.)

My belts were on their last legs, so I replace them and went through a general alignment - guides, tracking, etc.  The main thing I found was tracking on the drive wheel was slightly different than the RH wheel.  The blade was running a little farther back on the drive wheel.

New blade, new belts, new alignment, new spring washers.  It's back to sawing perfectly again with sharp blades or time-to-change blades.

After wearing out a couple polyurethane bushings pretty quickly, I'd say the change to the spring washer assembly is pretty important. 

Just throwing this out there in case it might help somebody.

BT


(Once again I'd like to thank Woodland Mills for their prompt and friendly service.)
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Re: Chattering band-Kasco
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2017, 07:17:47 pm »
Deere80, I was following this thread and saw your picture of the issue you were having.  I had been having the same problem recently.  Woodland Mills sent me the spring washer upgrade (free and promptly) which I installed last week.  It improved but didn't completely eliminate the problem.  (The spring washer is a big and necessary improvement over the polyurethane bushing though.)

My belts were on their last legs, so I replace them and went through a general alignment - guides, tracking, etc.  The main thing I found was tracking on the drive wheel was slightly different than the RH wheel.  The blade was running a little farther back on the drive wheel.

New blade, new belts, new alignment, new spring washers.  It's back to sawing perfectly again with sharp blades or time-to-change blades.

After wearing out a couple polyurethane bushings pretty quickly, I'd say the change to the spring washer assembly is pretty important. 

Just throwing this out there in case it might help somebody.

BT


(Once again I'd like to thank Woodland Mills for their prompt and friendly service.)

Last couple logs I sawed with my 126, I started seeing this problem. :( Did a alignment, have new belts. Kind of though it might be that I sharpen my own blades. Well early this morning, I had put a new blade on. Same problem. :(

Called Woodland and asked about the up grade and sure as heck they agree and the best part, they are sending me the replacement parts up grade for free. ;D

I have to say, after having my mill over two years and the seller coming across and sending me replacement parts to up grade my mill is beyond. This is the second time that they did this for me. I can't say enough to thank them. Not to many companies will step in after a warrant and replace parts for free. That should tell someone what kind of support one gets with a Woodland Mills. Forestry Forum should be proud to have them as a sponsor. And yes, thank you Woodland. ;D