iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

deutz oem cold start?

Started by pinefeller, March 06, 2017, 06:19:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pinefeller

SO ive skimmed over all the threads on cold starting-magical-blockheater-generator-salamander heater-propne-either yada yada yada yada, methods.... how about just fixing the factory stuff :)

Got a f5l912 deutz (1987)in my skidder and after some investigation it appears to have some kind of cold start widgit consisting of an ignitor/solenoid, and a fuel soleniod plus some kind of ceramic resistory thing under the dash. anyone familiar with these and know how to troubleshoot it to see of it is operational? Ive poked around the internet and i guess some tractors with Deutz' had a button you have to push to make it all work. but my wiring harness appears to be unmolested and no button. theres also no mention of such a button in the manual, but my manual is older than my machine so things may be different.

So if anyone could explain how the oem cold start is supposed to work and how to trace and check it that would be awesome!!!
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

barbender

Is it an air intake heater, by chance?  B series Cummins engines in Dodge pickups are equipped with that type of heater, and it vastly improves cold weather starting. I've only seen the intake heater on Dodge pickups, other B series applications didnt't have them- and they start hard! Get much below 32°F and they don't start very well. Also, the Mercedes diesel in the Ponsse forwarder I run has (I assume) an intake heater as well, that, like my Dodge pickups, will start unassisted down to -20°. I'm not saying that's good for them, but tbey will start. As far as operation, you just turn the key on (Dodge or Ponsse), there is an indicator light that comes on to show the heater is activated, and when it gets up to temp the light goes out. I've never had to work on them so I have no idea what's involved.
Too many irons in the fire

millcreek40

I have a fl6912. The start button has two positions. You pull it out half way to preheat. Then pull it out the rest of the way to start.  At least that is the way on a Timberjack. Mine has a light to show when the glow plug is on
Two 240A Timberjacks, Mack log truck, Multitek 2040 wood processor.

bushmechanic

The system that you have I have seen before. The idea is to ignite fuel in the intake manifold to heat the incoming air charge to make it start better in the cold. I don't think it was any good because I can't remember anyone ever asking me to fix one of them. A can of either is just as good :D

jwilly3879

The C5D that I ran had a rotary switch that when turned to the left was the preheat then turn to the right to start.

I believe the heater works by heating the element and the drizzling fuel on it to warm the intake manifold.

The 6 cylinder in our 240 just starts.

lopet

If this  is a electric air intake heater like millcreek40's then you can jump a wire from the battery to that heater to find out if it works. You may have to take the filter housing off to find out what you've got. It could be a little spiral thingy, which starts to glow and warms up the incoming air. It needs good contacts. And yes they're fuel injected systems like bushmechanic says. They did not work very well and I am not familiar with either.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

lopet

Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

pinefeller

lopet- yep read that one.

i do believe theres supposed to be a light
i dont think my ignition switch has a "glow" position, just off on start. or does it just happen every time the engine cranks over regardless?
bottom line- ill figure it out just lookin (or hoping)for a short cut. i generally go by the theory OEM's (especially German)make some wicked good stuff and its hard to believe they would turn out a product that couldn't start in the environment it was designed for. just dont want to unwrap the first unhacked wiring harness ive ever seen to figure it out!

yep @20f and up starts good
@0-20 light whiff of summer breeze
@-25-0 lots of summer breeze
@colder than that, i stay home and feed the wood stove!
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

KGTC4D

I have a Deutz 5 cylinder in a Tree Farmer.  I replaced The "L shaped" handle you turn to start the machine once and it was called the "pre heat starter switch".  I don't think my pre heater works at all but supposedly it works off the key switch.  Maybe that will get you on the right track. 

lopet

I personally would not fart around with a fuel injected pre heater. My tractors and my skidder have the hold position on the key switch or on the starter pull knob. If you're saying yours doesn't have that position, you can install a second  "press and hold"  switch in your dash and run it off your ignition through that one and from there to the pre heater , glow plug and/or fuel solonoid. Like I said you need a heavy wire and good contacts.
Your air intake pipe is most likely split in sections and the part with the heater can be taken out and replaced.
I always found that two good batteries make one heck of a difference, sometimes more than a working pre heating system. Those old Deutz like to have lots of cranking amps to start.  No water jacket means the cold gets in it a lot faster, especially when you don't run them every day.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

David-L

Had the same motor and yes the OEM is electric element and fuel that shoots into the intake for an explosion. My Valtra tractor has the same setup and works good. If it dosen't start first round with that system you better give it a couple of minutes before you try with the pre heat or stuff can really go pop. On my Duetz I used my truck and garage exhaust hose to start it by warming up the jugs with exhaust with a blanket over the hood. It was an awsome sight on the cold mornings watching the steam come out of the front end of that beast. Still was my favorite motor of all the Timberjacks I've had. It always started. Good luck.



   Good luck.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

pinefeller








well maybe there is another position on the key ....between run and start? giong to break out the test light. usually you turn the key to the left past off for "glow" or maybe ive been shutting it off wrong all along since you kill the fuel manually :P..... i also have a key not a switch, hmmmm thigs are starting to make sense here

thanks david-l i was looking for that (actual verification of usefulness)i know i read somewhere about an exhaust heater.
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

chet

Ran a C5D with a Deutz  for years. The manifold preheat system did have an indicator light that would come on when it was up to temp. I never had a starting problem with it even when well below zero. A WORD OF WARNING, DON'T EVER USE EITHER AND THE PREHEATING SYSTEM TOGETHER.

It's been awhile, but if memory serves me correct, the preheat position was just before the start position.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

pinefeller

chet- ok we're homing in on the answer i was looking for. i wonder if there is anyone out there that still has one in operation to give me something to to compare to........
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

David-L

I can give you the # of a gentlemen that fixed his to OEM specs on a C5 Tree Farmer with that motor. pm me.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

tj240

call SWinton inc, in queensbury ny. If you have a picture of the dash it would be more help. If you have a L shaped rocker, and a small coil that would work like a light hold lever to the left until the coil is red then turn lever to right to start. My 6 cyl just starts with a small wiff of happy gas[either]
work with my father[jwilly] and my son. we have a 240 tj 160 barko[old] works great three generations working together

Oliver05262

tj, I think what you describe is the glow plug system that has a glow plug screwed into the head on several of the cylinders, like the temperature gauge sending bulb is. They are in series with an indicator coil that you can see in the dash. They all seem to get up to temperature at the same time, and when the one you can see in the small hole in the dash glows brightly, the ones in the cyl heads are hot, too. An old Bosch system, and the old Mercedes cars used to use the same thing, but it didn't seem to work as well years ago.Still in use on some older Japanese and Korean built tractors; I've seen it on Kubota and older Ford compact tractors.
Oliver Durand
"You can't do wrong by doing good"
It's OK to cry.
I never did say goodby to my invisible friend.
"I woke up still not dead again today" Willy
Don't use force-get a bigger hammer.

pinefeller





def not glow plugs; those i am familliar with

thanks again to everyone that has dropped their .02 in the bucket for me, ill get this surrounded. think i understand the concept of how it works now just need to get the voltmeter and test light out (was chasing parts for the clutch. BTW if anyones interested in a low friction clutch ill make them a great deal lol)
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

chet

I'm pretty sure the orange indicator light under the hour meter is your preheat light. Your pics are kinda joggin' my old memory.  :D  Seems that I remember that if you turned the key too close to the start position the preheater would not work. I used to peek between the steering column and the dash to see if the resistor coil was getting red. That way I knew I hadn't turned it too far. 
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Mapleman

I've got a JCB backhoe with a perkins motor and it has that same type of preheater in the intake manifold with the fuel supply attached.  Its always worked well for me, the machine will start down to 0 with no problems.  On my machine, the preheater comes on when the key switch is turned halfway between the on and start positions.  The gauges give a little twitch when it comes on.  I hold it there for about 15 seconds, a little longer if its real cold, and then go to start and she usually fires right up. 

Hope this helps
"The older I get, the better I used to be."

pinefeller

so this is where im at... when the key is turned max left orange light comes on (now) and power goes to the fuel solenoid at the front of the block and to the glow plug/fuel injector. fuel solenoid is also activated when engine is physically cranking. ive left the key in preheat for a couple of minutes and the little coil wont glow or even get warm so im gooing to pull the glow injector thing and see if thats working where i can see it. it has continuity but something must be wrong because thoes coils should be glowing in the resistor. as far as the orange indicator light.... i took the relay/resistor appart and there is a bimetallic spring that should pull up inside of the little coil (thats supposes to glow) and brake contact for the little light and turn it off when the glow plug is up to temp.


so in theory :D  (chuckle)when the key is turned all the way left the glow cycle should start : little amber light comes on
when the glow plug is up to temp the bimetallic spring will lift up and break contact, shutting off the amber light.
at this point you start cranking the engine over and the fuel solenoid allows fuel from the injection pump to pass through the (glowing red hopefully) injector/glow plug into the intake  and woosh it should be like a little flamethrower in the intake


thoughts?
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

pinefeller

so this is what the ignitor looks like. hooked it straight to the battery with jumper cables...............................(about a minute later).. no go.  so ill start here. its wet with fuel, so for now i'll assume the solenoid is working but i cant test that theory until the flywheel is back in to turn the pump..
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

chet

I,ve had to replace the "relay/resistor" you refer to a couple of times, but never the igniter, or the fuel solenoid.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

pinefeller

im not ruling it out yet but for sure the igniter is definitely in-op... i do have power through the relay so im thinking its the ignitor. now i gotta find one! no deutz dealers round here!
for those who say "it cannot be done!" please do so quietly so as not to disturb those who are doing it.

Corley5

I've bought stuff for my Deutz from these guys  8)

http://www.foleyengines.com/
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Thank You Sponsors!