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How Clean is Your New Oil? - Pictures

Started by Mark M, December 07, 2004, 04:41:48 AM

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Mark M

Since many of us use oil in our sawmill and other equipment I thought you might be interested in seeing what's in the new oil. These pictures are not exceptions but are typical of what we see every day. The oil in a properly operating hydraulic system is in most cases cleaner than the new oil dumped in during a change. We have to filter our new oil in order to meet the Cat specs for fill oils. This is also the reason I do not recommend prefilling oil filters since everything dumped into the core of a filter goes right into the engine. This especially true of fuel filters.







There's more at New Oil Pictures


Buzz-sawyer

What micron size are those little bolders?
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OneWithWood

Are you inferring that it would make more sense to change a hydraulic oil filter and top up the reservoir than to change the oil?  Or are there other factors to consider, such as thermal breakdown and stuff?
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Stump Jumper

Must be the additive package :D :)

But seriously please tell us more.  Should we filter is this major oil companies.

Thanks for the info.
Jeff
May God Bless.
WM LT 40 SuperHDD42 HP Kubota walk & ride, WM Edger, JD Skidsteer 250, Farmi winch, Bri-Mar Dump Box Trailer, Black Powder

Mark M

The smaller particles are around 5-10 micron and the bigger run 40 and up. 40 is as about as small as you can see without magnification and a human hair is about 80. The dust on your tv screen is about 40 microns in size.

In many cases it does make more sense to change the filter and top off with clean oil. The only way to know for sure is the have the oil analyzed. I hate to even mention this at the risk of sounding like I am trying to sell something but doing a particle count will tell if the oil is clean and is worth the investment especially if you are dealing with a large system. Our rental fleet is notorious for sticking to changing oil at the recommended 2000 hour interval. In most cases the oil they drain out is 5 to 10 times cleaner than the oil they are putting in. I've tried my DanG'ed'es to get them to stop contaminating these systems but they insist on putting in the new dirty oil because that's what it says in the book.

As far as breakdown of hydraulic oil goes in most cases it happens very slowly since the oil does not get that hot (at least in the systems I deal with). We have some customers who run over 10,000 hours with no ill affect and in fact I usually recommed that they don't change it until the oil analysis shows a problem. Even in cases of contamination we can hook a filter cart to the machine and clean the system. The nice thing about hydraulic oil is you can tell a lot by just looking at it. If oxidation or thermal degradation are happening it will get dark and smell burnt. (I've never seen a burnt hydraulic sample in a straight hyd system). You can't see the contaminants that are of concern by looking at the oil but if you cut the filter open and inspect the pleats you should be able to see the larger ones. By the way this is almost as good as sending in a sample of oil for analysis. Water will make it look cloudy and air entry will make it foam.

As for new oil yes I do recommend filtering it first. There is a guy I know who has some filter carts for this purpose and they work pretty good (www.oiltransfer.com) in fact we have a couple of customers using his cart and just "recycling" their non-engine oil. In the shop we filter all the new oil before we put it in the machines unless it is in gallon jugs. To tell the truth I've looked at over 3000 samples of new oil and have not found one that meets Caterpillar's fill oil spec without filtering first. It doesn't matter which brand, they're all dirty. Even the Cat oil has to be filtered to meet spec. We've added filters to our hose reals, 2 micron breathers on the tanks, and use kidney loop filters to filter the oil until it is at IS0 16/13. This takes about a week of steady filtering.

Mark


OneWithWood

One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Buzz-sawyer

Mark
What you are saying is incredible really! I completetly agree....but most folks just cant fathom that new oil is dirtier than stuff filtererd through 5 micron filter.
Are you up for some questions?
I am doing a project now , (renewable energy related) where recycling waste vegatable oil , wvo and svo straight (new) vegetable oil as well as engine oilto a lesser extent.

 These are used as fuels which are heated then run through an injection pump to a direct injection engine. :o
The key as I see it is the heat related to the waxes which will destroy fuel systems quick as demonstrated by ALL the eartly svo experiments of the 70-80's.  :P

After all diesels were originally designed by Rudolph to run on veggie power. ;) :)

My question to you my friend is,
 what what you do in regards to ECONOMICAL filtration ...Many of the common sock filters claim they work to 5 micron...seems doubtful.  :-/I see heating it and running through 3 filters.what type would you recomend?Do you have a source to recomend?
I am filtering, 1000 gallons of wvo so after pre filtering would the srew on types be plausible for that vollume?

...there was a post on oil filtering last year..I am not sure it was you .regarding diesel motor oil filteration as key to success...it was good and had a good link ;)
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Mark M

Hi Buzz

Why don't you send me some of that oil (both kinds) and I'll take a look at it. Once I know what kind of solids we are dealing with then I might be able to recommendation.

There are some filters that I once saw that had a very fine stainless steel screen, something like that might be good as a start since it can be cleaned and reused. Also you might want to consider a centrifuge type filter such as the Spinner brand. This is another filter where you can clean it and reuse. For our fuel systems we use 2 micron filters so I suppose that is where you want to be. I think you will need to heat the oil, depending on it's viscosity. Are you trying to do all this on straight oil or can you mix some fuel with it?

I would expect you to be dealing with some oxidation products such as varnishes and resins and probably some other organic solids. These have a tendency to plug filters quickly.

I'll send you an address where you can send the oil.

Mark

Buzz-sawyer

I am sure I am attempting to re invent the wheel.......... :o :o
This process has no doubt been refined before, but not by me :D :D
I visualize using large woven type pre filter........40 micron  then on to a 10 micron then a 2 micron filter.......... ???
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Mark M

Buzz, have you looked into convertin that stuff to bio-diesel? They usually have good luck with that process. I been thinkin about doing that to make some fuel for my boiler.

Buzz-sawyer

Yes the engine starts annd warms up on bio diesel, then runs on bio before shutting down , this prevents problems. ;)

A boiler is EASY to run on wvo member MURF has experience building several interesting adapters for wood stoves, and cyclonic burners...neat stuff :)
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Danny_S

I helped install a boiler last year that burns waste vegetable oil, it works well. He has made one batch of biodiesel as well and burned about 80 litres in his diesel Hino delivery truck. Worked good.

~~Good link to Biodiesel~~

The glycerine seperated out of wvo has lots of good uses as well. The process is really rather simple.. check it out... I would like to have a little refinery for myself sometime.
Plasma cutting at Craig Manufacturing

FeltzE

Mark,

Are those solids contaminates from a drum based system of oil ie. a shop 55 gal bulk drum? Or straight from an unopened gal jug?

What kind of solids are you finding? Waxes. addatives, or harmful particulate such as metal, grit, etc?

I have worked in the aviation field for the last 24 yrs and we use synthetics in the aircraft. The primary breakdown of the fluids is with the addatives not the oil itself, The oil anylisis labs we use are checking for suspended metals , how much and what kind which will tell what parts are wearing.

Eric.


Mark M

Hi FeltzE

Most of the pictures are bulk, either 55 gallon drums or bigger tanks. The 30 weight oils are from quart containers. I put the actual reports at http://www.pbase.com/stinkypeterson so you can see the complete analysis.

Most of the solids are dust/dirt/sand. There is also metals and some organic materials. For us it is a big problem because Cat wants a certain cleanliness level so we have to filter the heck out of the oil to get it clean.

Mark

VA-Sawyer

Mark,
Are you just talking about hydraulic fliuds here ?  Are you finding this kind of stuff in engine oils ?
VA-Sawyer

Mark M

VA - yep, all oils. In fact most of the pictures are from engine oils. We are more concerned about hydraulic and gear compartments because that's where we can see the biggest savings buy reducing wear and fatigue cause by these little buggers.


Buzz-sawyer

Hey Mark
Whats your take on these "Bag" filters?


ToolPage
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Mark M

Verrrrie Interesting!

We use something just like that in our solvent tanks to catch the big chunks before the final filter which is a 2 micron fuel element. They work well.

Mark M

Oh yeah - here is a link to a slide that shows what can happen if you clean up your hydraulic system.

http://www.pbase.com/stinkypeterson/image/37283471

If you are not familiar with the ISO codes let me know and I try to dig up some more slides. The lower the code the cleaner the system

Mark

Now if I only had hydraulics on my Norwood :(

FeltzE

Very interesting, I'll have to work harder on keeping my drums clean!!!

Eric

Gilman

Mark,
Do synthetic oils have the same contamination problem?
WM LT70, WM 40 Super, WM  '89 40HD
Cat throwing champion 1996, 1997, 1999. (retired)

Mark M

I haven't tested as many synthetics but the ones I have are also contaminated. There is a report for Mobil 15W50 on the www.pbase.com/stinkypeterson page.

Buzz-sawyer

Mark heres a simple set up  another guy is using to filter....using a cat filter and a couple of others.....


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Mark M

That looks like a good setup Buzz. What is he using if for?

Buzz-sawyer

Cleaning waste vegetable oil from retaurants to run in his vw car!! He is using a cat water seperator.......but I think he is still getting moisture....many guys just let it settle some heat it.........the less energy spent is the goal :)
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